Power steering question

[Murry101]

So, this might be a stupid question. Are the different steering modes in the ITS (and other modern cars) achieved by varying the level of EPS assist? I assume so, but don't know. Here's why I ask, my father had a 1983 944 with manual steering, no power assist at all. Just a plain old rack and pinion. The effort required to turn the steering wheel in a parking lot was herculean, but dropped to almost zero at normal speeds in both straight lines and gentle curves. The effort would increase as you loaded the tires in a fast corner. Exit ramps were so much fun in that car. Having lower EPS "boost" to allow more feedback makes sense to me, but in the ITS the steering effort feels fairly consistent for each mode. It never feels light the way a manual system does at speed in a straight line.

I found this explanation of Ford's EPS system on a Mustang forum: https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/ford-epas-steering-you-straight-march-2019/

 

[Zircular]

That’s just the nature of EPS, for better or for worse. Because the system is actively managing steering effort you don’t get much feedback (i.e., change in steering effort depending on conditions). Variable modes in modern cars can feel artificial because the system works exactly as you describe. Effort increases but the fundamental action of the system precludes increasing feedback. Lots of younger folks don’t notice because they don’t have experience even with hydraulic steering, never mind something with a manual rack.

 

[RamVA]

We had a 944 endurance car that we converted from power steer to manual. We didn't de-power the PS system, we put in a full stock manual rack. It was great on track and (more important) a lot more reliable, but on the 944 the manual rack is about 20% slower ratio than the power rack. That's how you make it manageable at parking lot speed, but it is a trade-off.

All of that to say, with the quicker steering ratios and heavier weight on modern sporty cars, power steer is basically essential. Aside from this 944, all the manual steer cars I've owned were either very light, mid-engined, or both.

 

[Murry101]

Thanks for the replies. I did not know that the steering rates (power versus manual) were different in the 944. I will say that they were great cars. Suffered from low horsepower, but the feel of that car was fantastic, even with the large sidewall tires of the day.

The weight of modern cars precluding the practical use of manual steering makes sense. I wish there was a way to make EPS feel more connected and less numb. Even the hydraulic steering systems of a couple years ago provided more feel than the EPS of today. I had a 2012 Passat that provided more "feel" than the ITS. Seems like engineers could do better if it were a higher priority, but maybe that's not the case. All motion is not progress.

 

[optronix]

Engineers are doing everything they can with EPS. For cars like the ITS it is absolutely a priority. Do not underestimate the quality of the ITS steering.

In fact, just go drive an Audi. Literally any one. Grab an RS6 if you can. You'll come away with a new appreciation for your ITS.

BMW isn't much better, arguably WORSE unless it's an M car. Then it's just "meh".

"Steering feel" is one of the most annoyingly subjective things in the enthusiast vernacular today. I'm convinced that no two people are ever going to universally agree on steering feel for every car. Especially when talking EPS. For me, some cars are unequivocally bad (Audi) and some cars are fantastic (Porsche), and there's a lot in between. Also, EPS steering continues to get better over time. The early Porsche racks in the 981 and 991 are nowhere near as good as the ones in the 991.2 and 718, let alone the 992. Or even my Macan GTS!

I stand by my initial assessment back when I got the car that the ITS is Porsche-level. I won't try to argue it's better, but I would argue it's as good as a Porsche.

Actually while we're on the subject, hydraulic steering is overrated. As hell. IMHO. There's this overhanging nostalgia for hydraulic steering that is not really substantiated when you get behind the wheel. Sort of like retro video games; we feel like we miss them because we have fond memories but you go to play one and you're just like "fuck, this is terrible" compared to modern games.

I'll just use the 2015 STI I had in comparison, I think that's fair because trying to compare to a Porsche from 30-40 years ago is a fool's errand. I could also use an E92 335i, or E36 M3 that I had. Same story; the STI is the most recent. The steering in the STI was pretty good, sure it might have "loaded up" a bit more noticeably, but it was still pretty darty and sensitive and definitely didn't measurably impact the driving experience. The ITS driving experience is CATEGORICALLY better than a 2015 Subaru, which makes you instantly forget about the nuances of the steering. Tires, suspension technology, and power delivery are so incomprehensibly better it just isn't worth thinking about these old cars, or pining about "they don't make them like they used to"... if you want that experience, you're just going to have to go buy an old car. Simple as that.

 

[ckone2030]

Engineers are doing everything they can with EPS. For cars like the ITS it is absolutely a priority. Do not underestimate the quality of the ITS steering.

In fact, just go drive an Audi. Literally any one. Grab an RS6 if you can. You'll come away with a new appreciation for your ITS.

BMW isn't much better, arguably WORSE unless it's an M car. Then it's just "meh".

"Steering feel" is one of the most annoyingly subjective things in the enthusiast vernacular today. I'm convinced that no two people are ever going to universally agree on steering feel for every car. Especially when talking EPS. For me, some cars are unequivocally bad (Audi) and some cars are fantastic (Porsche), and there's a lot in between. Also, EPS steering continues to get better over time. The early Porsche racks in the 981 and 991 are nowhere near as good as the ones in the 991.2 and 718, let alone the 992. Or even my Macan GTS!

I stand by my initial assessment back when I got the car that the ITS is Porsche-level. I won't try to argue it's better, but I would argue it's as good as a Porsche.

Actually while we're on the subject, hydraulic steering is overrated. As hell. IMHO. There's this overhanging nostalgia for hydraulic steering that is not really substantiated when you get behind the wheel. Sort of like retro video games; we feel like we miss them because we have fond memories but you go to play one and you're just like "fuck, this is terrible" compared to modern games.

I'll just use the 2015 STI I had in comparison, I think that's fair because trying to compare to a Porsche from 30-40 years ago is a fool's errand. I could also use an E92 335i, or E36 M3 that I had. Same story; the STI is the most recent. The steering in the STI was pretty good, sure it might have "loaded up" a bit more noticeably, but it was still pretty darty and sensitive and definitely didn't measurably impact the driving experience. The ITS driving experience is CATEGORICALLY better than a 2015 Subaru, which makes you instantly forget about the nuances of the steering. Tires, suspension technology, and power delivery are so incomprehensibly better it just isn't worth thinking about these old cars, or pining about "they don't make them like they used to"... if you want that experience, you're just going to have to go buy an old car. Simple as that.

Agree that the ITS steering feel is so much better than many cars I have driven. Note that it has better feel than my 2024 M3 G80 and that is saying a lot about the ITS!

 

[optronix]

Agree that the ITS steering feel is so much better than many cars I have driven. Note that it has better feel than my 2024 M3 G80 and that is saying a lot about the ITS!

EXACTLY

 

[bpebler]

Some awesome analogies from those who have driven much nicer cars than I could afford in the past! I appreciate this input probably the most on this forum. I already pretty much knew I wanted this car over anything else, but it were these points in general that made me better about my purchase and stop worrying about other more expensive vehicles that were contenders.

I tried to street roll race a new RS3 last weekend on the way to the PCA seminar but he did not want to play.

 

[optronix]

Some awesome analogies from those who have driven much nicer cars than I could afford in the past! I appreciate this input probably the most on this forum. I already pretty much knew I wanted this car over anything else, but it were these points in general that made me better about my purchase and stop worrying about other more expensive vehicles that were contenders.

I tried to street roll race a new RS3 last weekend on the way to the PCA seminar but he did not want to play.

You would have lost. Badly lol.

ITS strong point is not straight line speed... there are MANY faster cars. But very very few offer a better holistic driving experience.

 

[bpebler]

You would have lost. Badly lol.

ITS strong point is not straight line speed... there are MANY faster cars. But very very few offer a better holistic driving experience.

I agree. I’m 100% ok with losing. However, 380whp/390tq is getting at least a tad closer to a nice power weight ratio. I know you could care less about some of these mods & tuning (especially the turbo upgrades ), but it will be fun in the future to have street & track maps to at least be closer to the rear bumpers of some of these vehicles.

We will see, but it should be fun to hit the cruise control switch to bump up to 450-475whp with a turbo beginning spool at 2k opposed to 3, & then tune down for the turns, autoX, HDPE, time trials.

 

[ABPDE5]

I agree. I’m 100% ok with losing. However, 380whp/390tq is getting at least a tad closer to a nice power weight ratio. I know you could care less about some of these mods & tuning (especially the turbo upgrades ), but it will be fun in the future to have street & track maps to at least be closer to the rear bumpers of some of these vehicles.

We will see, but it should be fun to hit the cruise control switch to bump up to 450-475whp with a turbo beginning spool at 2k opposed to 3, & then tune down for the turns, autoX, HDPE, time trials.

Careful with that low end torque on those beefy tunes, though!

 

[bpebler]

Careful with that low end, torque on those beefy tunes, though!

Definitely! Map 2 is reduced boost in first & second & pretty appropriate for most situations. Map 1 is a lot more fun as long as one is concentrating on their footwork as they should. I don’t think I’ll use it until input summer tires or the oem setup back on next month or 2. I haven’t really even used the other 3 maps - but I’m told staying in standard Sport mode on map 4 is great for heavy CO snow @Azkyrie6 Hopefully I won’t need to use it on next weeks trip, but very useful to know. I do trust D-Rob for whatever custom tunes we come up with also. He knows the limits & will always suggest needed parts for more of those limit reachers. Surprised at how much the stock internals & powertrain can handle in these though.

 

[optronix]

I agree. I’m 100% ok with losing. However, 380whp/390tq is getting at least a tad closer to a nice power weight ratio. I know you could care less about some of these mods & tuning (especially the turbo upgrades ), but it will be fun in the future to have street & track maps to at least be closer to the rear bumpers of some of these vehicles.

We will see, but it should be fun to hit the cruise control switch to bump up to 450-475whp with a turbo beginning spool at 2k opposed to 3, & then tune down for the turns, autoX, HDPE, time trials.

I forgot you were tuned, totally different story. You might have taken him.

It's haughty for me to sit here and preach about street racing but it's just not something I think about any more.

 

[ABPDE5]

I forgot you were tuned, totally different story. You might have taken him.

It's haughty for me to sit here and preach about street racing but it's just not something I think about any more.

Yeah, 380 whp / 3200 lbs is pretty quick. From a roll, in good conditions, he's actually got a pretty decent chance. That said, regardless of how good you are with a manual, that auto trans will make a fool of you in a drag race.

 

[ckone2030]

Yeah, 380 whp / 3200 lbs is pretty quick. From a roll, in good conditions, he's actually got a pretty decent chance. That said, regardless of how good you are with a manual, that auto trans will make a fool of you in a drag race.

Agree. My ITS is also tuned but I have not dynoed it so I don’t know the hp and torque improvement. However when I put the M3 on Sport+ and used the launch control, I know I will never accelerate that fast with the ITS. I know the RS3 is not as fast as the M3 but it is pretty close. And even though I have driven manual cars since I was 13 (born in Asia so everything was manuals), I don’t think I can change gears that fast to compete with those smooth/precise automatic. Lastly, with the added power in the tuned ITS, I felt more wheel hops during launch especially with map 1, even with the Ps4S in good road/weather conditions. I have the PRL RMM, which hopefully will reduce the hops, but still too cold and too lazy to install it.