Just got Phearable stage 2 tuned - rev hang is still there... :-(

[elh0102]

In all seriousness, I think this is a problem with perception. I get what you guys are saying. There is something about the way this car (and other Hondas...) behaves with the way the revs "hang around" erratically compared to other manual cars I've driven.

But I think that's where it ends. What I've done is just sort of accept it and adjust my driving appropriately. It was a bit of an eyebrow-raising event in the first few weeks- and the first few laps around a track- but I haven't noticed it virtually at all since.

I think I'm noticing a trend with people who got very used to BMWs appear to be particularly sensitive to this phenomenon.

From what I'm seeing it's a "retraining" thing... but I also understand how you can get very used to specific subjective nuances around an experience, and it feels like something is completely missing and can't be reconciled if you can't figure out how to replicate it. I wish I could tell you how I managed to get over it, because it makes me sad to think that people aren't getting the same level of enjoyment out of this car that I am.

But sometimes it really just boils down to "people like what they like".

I understand what you're saying, and to a great extent I agree. But, I also believe that there is a tuning issue that is not universally found in every ITS. I have read numerous detailed descriptions of how the revs will hang, and in some cases increase, the moment after the clutch and the throttle are disengaged in an upshift. That is pretty clear and specific, and would be very obvious to detect, probably even impossible to miss. I have tested my car under the conditions most often mentioned, as well as many more. My car does not do it, not at all. There is some turbo lag that is very noticeable under fast shifts, when immediately going back to full throttle. But this could hardly be mistaken for the rev hang being discussed, which I would find unacceptable.

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[ashmostro]

Thanks. This need to rationalize why some might find this behavior acceptable and others don't eludes me.

People have different preferences, and they're not a consequence of irrational or incomplete thinking.

 

[ashmostro]

Question for the experienced Hondata people: I am going to try a canned Hondata tune, but with the integra type s selected as the car, I cannot disable pops and bangs (it reselects itself). Is it okay to use the Civic Type R binary in place? Or can that damage the ECU?

 

[ender_ong]

Question for the experienced Hondata people: I am going to try a canned Hondata tune, but with the integra type s selected as the car, I cannot disable pops and bangs (it reselects itself). Is it okay to use the Civic Type R binary in place? Or can that damage the ECU?

you're right that in the 'mods' menu, the pops and bangs reselects itself when unselected, happens to me too. instead, go to the 'calibration' menu and go to the 'rev limits' top menu and unselect from the 'pops & bangs' section, this works for me.

 

[ashmostro]

Thank you!

 

[coxxoc]

Just piling on with you OP. After owning 8 other manual cars over the years, the rev hang on this one drove me nuts. Funny enough the first car I had tuned to remove rev hang was an F80 M3. No matter what was done, it would open the throttle after the accelerator position closed. Best case was to reduce the hang. What do you know, there is a very similar Bosch ecu controlling this car. Hondata has only a fraction of the tables defined to tweak things compared to what we were used to on BMWs.

Jester did the tuning (is good!) on my Type S. The rev hang isn’t 100% gone but is significantly reduced. It is likely the tuners are using what is available and defined by Hondata or Cobb to fix it. There is a checkbox option in the software, but that was all I could find. No maps or conditional logic to calibrate.

 

[elh0102]

Just piling on with you OP. After owning 8 other manual cars over the years, the rev hang on this one drove me nuts. Funny enough the first car I had tuned to remove rev hang was an F80 M3. No matter what was done, it would open the throttle after the accelerator position closed. Best case was to reduce the hang. What do you know, there is a very similar Bosch ecu controlling this car. Hondata has only a fraction of the tables defined to tweak things compared to what we were used to on BMWs.

Jester did the tuning (is good!) on my Type S. The rev hang isn’t 100% gone but is significantly reduced. It is likely the tuners are using what is available and defined by Hondata or Cobb to fix it. There is a checkbox option in the software, but that was all I could find. No maps or conditional logic to calibrate.

From your comments, it appears that the rev hang is part of the factory ecu tuning. If so, why does my car (and others) not have the same issue? Mine has absolutely none of it. Could it be something that was changed mid-generation? My build date is 10/24.

 

[s219]

I think we're creating unnecessary confusion here by describing this as "rev hang". Completely different animal. Rev hang is when the RPMs drop very slowly and lazily. The 1.5L engine in the base and A-spec Integra, and Civic Si, has horrible rev hang. I noticed it right away and could never live with that on a daily basis. Typical byproduct of modern emissions strategies.

The ITS (and CTR, and many other modern sports cars) do rev-matched upshifts, where revs will drop to and hold at the proper RPM for the next gear and current road speed. It generally works well. Some people perceive that as rev hang, but it's intentional -- relatively fast RPM drop *then* a hold -- and the hold has a timeout if you wait too long before re-engaging the clutch in the next gear.

The throttle over-rev behavior we're talking about on the ITS and CTR is annoying as hell, and I always wondered if it was a software glitch. Lifting off the throttle is having the opposite effect since revs shoot up instead of drop down. But if 3rd party tuners can't/won't correct it, must be something intrinsic to the throttle and boost arrangement of the engine.

I recently traded my ITS for a CTR and notice a few subtle improvements in the stock tune, but the over-rev behavior is very much there and the same. Even being used to the behavior, it still bugs the heck out of me.

Do any of the third-party tunes enable no-lift shifting? How does that behave with regards to the the stock over-rev tendency?

 

[elh0102]

I think we're creating unnecessary confusion here by describing this as "rev hang". Completely different animal. Rev hang is when the RPMs drop very slowly and lazily. The 1.5L engine in the base and A-spec Integra, and Civic Si, has horrible rev hang. I noticed it right away and could never live with that on a daily basis. Typical byproduct of modern emissions strategies.

The ITS (and CTR, and many other modern sports cars) do rev-matched upshifts, where revs will drop to and hold at the proper RPM for the next gear and current road speed. It generally works well. Some people perceive that as rev hang, but it's intentional -- relatively fast RPM drop *then* a hold -- and the hold has a timeout if you wait too long before re-engaging the clutch in the next gear.

The throttle over-rev behavior we're talking about on the ITS and CTR is annoying as hell, and I always wondered if it was a software glitch. Lifting off the throttle is having the opposite effect since revs shoot up instead of drop down. But if 3rd party tuners can't/won't correct it, must be something intrinsic to the throttle and boost arrangement of the engine.

I recently traded my ITS for a CTR and notice a few subtle improvements in the stock tune, but the over-rev behavior is very much there and the same. Even being used to the behavior, it still bugs the heck out of me.

Do any of the third-party tunes enable no-lift shifting? How does that behave with regards to the the stock over-rev tendency?

All I can say is that my ITS doesn't do this. When I lift off the throttle the revs immediately drop, as they should. If it behaved as you describe, I agree that it would be very annoying.

 

[ABPDE5]

The "rev climb" has happened to me in the past, and I have a post in this thread (and posts elsewhere) attesting to it occurring. Having said that, I tried to re-create it last weekend, and I couldn't.

That, and the varying reports here, have me second-guessing myself. I am wondering if it's possible that I caused the issue -- i.e. I was still very slightly on throttle when engaging the clutch. With how aggressive throttle response is in Sport +, even a very minor / fleeting clutch / throttle overlap could be enough to cause a rapid rpm climb when shifting.

Unfortunately, I don't have Hondata, etc., so I can't log myself, but it would be great if someone who's having this issue could data log an occurrence, so we could get some good data re: what's happening.

 

[ashmostro]

FYI I asked Derek at IMW about the tuneability of this issue and he concurred with Phearable that the only "feature" Hondata presents to the tuner are the checkmarks for two levels of rev hang delete. Hondata does not expose other tables or settings that are pertinent to the behavior so tuners currently don't have more tools to address this.

I still have to try out the canned tunes to see if the two levels of rev hang delete behave any differently (race vs non-race). It's not clear how these differ other than more aggressive throttle plate closure, but that's just an educated guess.

 

[ashmostro]

From your comments, it appears that the rev hang is part of the factory ecu tuning. If so, why does my car (and others) not have the same issue? Mine has absolutely none of it. Could it be something that was changed mid-generation? My build date is 10/24.

I'm starting to wonder if it's an issue with the recirculating valve not working well enough, creating an overpressure condition that the ECU "lets past" the throttle plate in order to protect the turbine. That could explain the variability.

Obviously, this is just wild theorizing at this point. When I find the time, I will try doing some datalogs.

 

[keonigt]

This is a curious observation. I'm on the COBB OTS Stage 1 map (FL5), and the rev hang I experienced on the stock map is either completely gone or largely imperceptible. And what I mean by rev hang is the noticeable delay and jump in revs before RPMs drop when you disengage the clutch during spirited driving, almost exclusively in the upper part of the rev range ~5,000 RPM+. This sounds to me like what @ashmostro is experiencing.

How do you like the COBB OTS map?

What was the process like in getting it tuned with COBB? does it still need to be unlocked?

 

[Victorofhavoc]

How do you like the COBB OTS map?

What was the process like in getting it tuned with COBB? does it still need to be unlocked?

I can answer this as well.

Cobb map adds a bit of power. Car feels basically stock below 3k rpm. I had to send my ecu to Cobb to be unlocked and it was a fast process. Theoretically you could use one of the other unlocker tools on the market. With the Cobb stage 1 93 map I could get the car hot and pull timing on track in 1.5 laps in 90F weather. It's a lean tune so it feels very much like factory and you don't get a rich smell, but just more everywhere. The laziness above 6k rpm goes away. Throttle response sharpens. Some of the rev hang goes away. It's a conservative and legal road tune and it feels as such. It aligns with a typical 200tw tire pretty well. I like it.

I have since gone down the custom tune route and picked up a bit more power, but a ton more torque. It blows the ps4s tires off the car and a hard shift into third can spin the tires. At 350ish whp and 370ish wtq, it needs a ton more tire.

 

[ABPDE5]

I can answer this as well.

Cobb map adds a bit of power. Car feels basically stock below 3k rpm. I had to send my ecu to Cobb to be unlocked and it was a fast process. Theoretically you could use one of the other unlocker tools on the market. With the Cobb stage 1 93 map I could get the car hot and pull timing on track in 1.5 laps in 90F weather. It's a lean tune so it feels very much like factory and you don't get a rich smell, but just more everywhere. The laziness above 6k rpm goes away. Throttle response sharpens. Some of the rev hang goes away. It's a conservative and legal road tune and it feels as such. It aligns with a typical 200tw tire pretty well. I like it.

I have since gone down the custom tune route and picked up a bit more power, but a ton more torque. It blows the ps4s tires off the car and a hard shift into third can spin the tires. At 350ish whp and 370ish wtq, it needs a ton more tire.

What rpm does the torque come in at now?

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