Back on Track

[Victorofhavoc]

Sucks about your Z ?

Curious re: choosing Cobb over Hondata, considering the former is newer to the space and seems to be more limited (although, I'll confess, most of the feedback is from folks running the OTS tune, not a custom one, so ?‍). Are you familiar with Cobb?

Thanks. I will miss the Z a lot. It was a platform on another level and the pace it could do put a lot of cars with twice the power to shame. I want another one at some point... Or a fully built cayman with the H6.

Oh boy, I think 99% of the civic community and 90% of this community would hate me for my reasons to go Cobb. Chief among them is the fact they sell a carb certified and 50 state legal 93oct tune. I do care about the environment and motorsports. They're often treated as orthogonal things, but really as a car community I believe we should strive to make the world a better/cleaner place and still push the boundaries of capability for motorsports performance.

From all the reading I've done around the forums, the marketing pages, the youtubers, and some speed shops, the biggest reason the civic/Integra community is anti Cobb is because they got caught by the epa disabling the second O2 sensor and had to revert that option in their offering. This left a lot of people feeling "stranded" because their cars relied on disabling or altering that O2 sensor reading to bypass certain emission checks and run a "dirtier" tune. Hondata still touches the secondary o2 sensor and I'm sure you've heard many people ask the question of "can I run this downpipe and not get a cel"... That's related to the o2 sensor and how certain catalytic converters don't provide enough "cleaning" of the exhaust gas before it hits that sensor. Yes some are capable, but that doesn't mean they're appropriately sized to pass a sniff test when people start tuning and going further with power so the secondary sensor gets touched.

The epa said they don't care about company size and they want to stop all the dirty tuning, so they've cracked down on a lot of companies. Hondata is just tiny compared to others so they haven't been primary targets. With the new administration we have, they've already stated they don't care about the epa or the environment, they've revoked the need for scrubbers on coal power plants, and they've allowed again for companies like Dupont to dump more waste into water systems and the ground. Will this mean the epa will stop going after tuners as well? No idea, that's above my pay grade. It doesn't change my opinion around environmental concerns.

When you're on track, a turbo car pushed to 100% will typically get 4mpg, so the tuning aspect and how dirty it is plays less of a role. That's where I feel custom tuning still has a purpose with the goal of maximizing performance and engine cooling. A cooler running engine (often done with richer fuel mixture) will pull less timing and surprisingly burn cleaner at those high stress limits. There's a lot of value in having a "track tune", especially when it comes to managing torque and the power curve on a turbo car. Too much torque down low in rpm and you just understeer on corner out. On the power end, peak power is less of a concern than managing a smooth power curve and overall bump in power. The Cobb ots tune is identical to stock down low and provides a more NA V6 type of curve at the top, and I believe that aligns well with general track use. For more, I would custom tune and flash to that when getting to the track and flash back when leaving.

... On that note, where I feel hondata really struggles is offering a modern quick flash option. The Cobb ap let's you just plug in and flash, swap, data log, and actively monitor without the need to drag around a laptop. If you're a track goer, you know that the guy fiddling with a laptop and dragging power cords around is the guy that spends all day troubleshooting his tech/tune and no time focusing on driving. I had a guy pay me to instruct him and pay for a closed course and then proceeded to waste my time for 5 hrs as he fiddled with laptop connectivity and lack of power (at that track no plug-ins were close by) before finally getting 1hr of instruction.

The Cobb platform needs more support for honda/acura. There's no getting around that. Unless people like me take the plunge and give it a go, that just won't happen.

Hondata is a fine option for most people, but it wasn't for my goals.

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[SilverRocket]

Thanks. I will miss the Z a lot. It was a platform on another level and the pace it could do put a lot of cars with twice the power to shame. I want another one at some point... Or a fully built cayman with the H6.

Oh boy, I think 99% of the civic community and 90% of this community would hate me for my reasons to go Cobb. Chief among them is the fact they sell a carb certified and 50 state legal 93oct tune. I do care about the environment and motorsports. They're often treated as orthogonal things, but really as a car community I believe we should strive to make the world a better/cleaner place and still push the boundaries of capability for motorsports performance.

From all the reading I've done around the forums, the marketing pages, the youtubers, and some speed shops, the biggest reason the civic/Integra community is anti Cobb is because they got caught by the epa disabling the second O2 sensor and had to revert that option in their offering. This left a lot of people feeling "stranded" because their cars relied on disabling or altering that O2 sensor reading to bypass certain emission checks and run a "dirtier" tune. Hondata still touches the secondary o2 sensor and I'm sure you've heard many people ask the question of "can I run this downpipe and not get a cel"... That's related to the o2 sensor and how certain catalytic converters don't provide enough "cleaning" of the exhaust gas before it hits that sensor. Yes some are capable, but that doesn't mean they're appropriately sized to pass a sniff test when people start tuning and going further with power so the secondary sensor gets touched.

The epa said they don't care about company size and they want to stop all the dirty tuning, so they've cracked down on a lot of companies. Hondata is just tiny compared to others so they haven't been primary targets. With the new administration we have, they've already stated they don't care about the epa or the environment, they've revoked the need for scrubbers on coal power plants, and they've allowed again for companies like Dupont to dump more waste into water systems and the ground. Will this mean the epa will stop going after tuners as well? No idea, that's above my pay grade. It doesn't change my opinion around environmental concerns.

When you're on track, a turbo car pushed to 100% will typically get 4mpg, so the tuning aspect and how dirty it is plays less of a role. That's where I feel custom tuning still has a purpose with the goal of maximizing performance and engine cooling. A cooler running engine (often done with richer fuel mixture) will pull less timing and surprisingly burn cleaner at those high stress limits. There's a lot of value in having a "track tune", especially when it comes to managing torque and the power curve on a turbo car. Too much torque down low in rpm and you just understeer on corner out. On the power end, peak power is less of a concern than managing a smooth power curve and overall bump in power. The Cobb ots tune is identical to stock down low and provides a more NA V6 type of curve at the top, and I believe that aligns well with general track use. For more, I would custom tune and flash to that when getting to the track and flash back when leaving.

... On that note, where I feel hondata really struggles is offering a modern quick flash option. The Cobb ap let's you just plug in and flash, swap, data log, and actively monitor without the need to drag around a laptop. If you're a track goer, you know that the guy fiddling with a laptop and dragging power cords around is the guy that spends all day troubleshooting his tech/tune and no time focusing on driving. I had a guy pay me to instruct him and pay for a closed course and then proceeded to waste my time for 5 hrs as he fiddled with laptop connectivity and lack of power (at that track no plug-ins were close by) before finally getting 1hr of instruction.

The Cobb platform needs more support for honda/acura. There's no getting around that. Unless people like me take the plunge and give it a go, that just won't happen.

Hondata is a fine option for most people, but it wasn't for my goals.

I hear your soap box rant and raise you a counter soap box rant. My premise: Our environmental compasses are screwed up.

If you got a car to produce nothing but 100% pure CO2, the stupid tree huggers would be against it because of "greenhouse gases". CO2 is plant food, it literally feeds the plants and makes them more lush and greener for which they produce more oxygen for us.

Science and facts be damned, they push solutions that are the equivalent of environmental creative accounting, i.e. it's okay if the kids in Africa are dying mining cobalt, nickle and lithium for their precious electric car batteries, but God forbid we burn a little petroleum pretty damn cleanly.

Even worse if we looked at it in the proper way, a diminishment of pollution from a stand point of clean breathable air, we'd actually strive to minimize brake dust. We'd remove stop signs and be doing better road design because that shit is so much worse for human lungs/health than what comes out of the tailpipe of a 2025 gas powered car.

Might as well be the church of Climatology, equivalent to the church of Scientology in that it's a cult where you leave critical thinking at the door and open your wallets to the benefactor overlords that have self anointed themselves to collect the dues.

I for one try to maintain the planet as pristine as possible, but not in the prescribed way that they cash in on.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I hear your soap box rant and raise you a counter soap box rant. My premise: Our environmental compasses are screwed up.

If you got a car to produce nothing but 100% pure CO2, the stupid tree huggers would be against it because of "greenhouse gases". CO2 is plant food, it literally feeds the plants and makes them more lush and greener for which they produce more oxygen for us.

Science and facts be damned, they push solutions that are the equivalent of environmental creative accounting, i.e. it's okay if the kids in Africa are dying mining cobalt, nickle and lithium for their precious electric car batteries, but God forbid we burn a little petroleum pretty damn cleanly.

Even worse if we looked at it in the proper way, a diminishment of pollution from a stand point of clean breathable air, we'd actually strive to minimize brake dust. We'd remove stop signs and be doing better road design because that shit is so much worse for human lungs/health than what comes out of the tailpipe of a 2025 gas powered car.

Might as well be the church of Climatology, equivalent to the church of Scientology in that it's a cult where you leave critical thinking at the door and open your wallets to the benefactor overlords that have self anointed themselves to collect the dues.

I for one try to maintain the planet as pristine as possible, but not in the prescribed way that they cash in on.

I agree on a lot of your points. I don't find ev to be "cleaner" based on HOW we consume vehicles. You'd have to drive an ev for 100k miles in an area with clean electricity generation before you'd break even on the environmental impact vs a similar gasoline car.

Yes, moving to asphalt roads that get repaved quickly every 3 to 5 years saves a ton of money for the local governments and tax payers in the short term, but to your point that rate of repaving leads to a lot more long term emissions.

Also agree that brake dust and tire dust emissions aren't looked at enough, and weight of vehicle (which ev, especially truck ev and suv ev are notorious for) is the single biggest factor in those emissions. I'd love for fewer street lights, stop signs, and more traffic circles. It would do a lot to improve the efforts of environmental protection as well as shorten commute times.

The counterpoint I would argue is the co2 emissions front. I used to believe this wasn't as big of a problem because of the "plant food" theory, but I've changed my tune on that in the last 10 years. Partly from experience with adding co2 for my planted aquariums, where a small change can drastically effect the pH of the water and suddenly kill the fish. Mostly from the research around co2 in the upper atmosphere where the plants don't exist. As it rises and moves into the atmosphere, it traps heat further. Similar to how water vapor would as well. Unfortunately between deforestation and a focus on growing quick money making crops, the plants that are effective at consuming co2 have dropped in number, effectively reducing our co2 capacity for natural and synthetic emissions.

Honestly, I think our real answer is moving away from fast consumerism and towards sustainable practices around farming, transportation, and manufacturing. It's certainly not easy, and we would see a lot of negative economy impact initially from global changes like that. The knock on effects would also last for many years because today we're setup for perpetual population and production growth and that's just unsustainable.

That all said, I am not so ignorant or naive that I think there's only one way forward. This is why my views have been flexible and changing over time. Ultimately I think sustainability is all it boils down to.

 

[ABPDE5]

I agree on a lot of your points. I don't find ev to be "cleaner" based on HOW we consume vehicles. You'd have to drive an ev for 100k miles in an area with clean electricity generation before you'd break even on the environmental impact vs a similar gasoline car.

Yes, moving to asphalt roads that get repaved quickly every 3 to 5 years saves a ton of money for the local governments and tax payers in the short term, but to your point that rate of repaving leads to a lot more long term emissions.

Also agree that brake dust and tire dust emissions aren't looked at enough, and weight of vehicle (which ev, especially truck ev and suv ev are notorious for) is the single biggest factor in those emissions. I'd love for fewer street lights, stop signs, and more traffic circles. It would do a lot to improve the efforts of environmental protection as well as shorten commute times.

The counterpoint I would argue is the co2 emissions front. I used to believe this wasn't as big of a problem because of the "plant food" theory, but I've changed my tune on that in the last 10 years. Partly from experience with adding co2 for my planted aquariums, where a small change can drastically effect the pH of the water and suddenly kill the fish. Mostly from the research around co2 in the upper atmosphere where the plants don't exist. As it rises and moves into the atmosphere, it traps heat further. Similar to how water vapor would as well. Unfortunately between deforestation and a focus on growing quick money making crops, the plants that are effective at consuming co2 have dropped in number, effectively reducing our co2 capacity for natural and synthetic emissions.

Honestly, I think our real answer is moving away from fast consumerism and towards sustainable practices around farming, transportation, and manufacturing. It's certainly not easy, and we would see a lot of negative economy impact initially from global changes like that. The knock on effects would also last for many years because today we're setup for perpetual population and production growth and that's just unsustainable.

That all said, I am not so ignorant or naive that I think there's only one way forward. This is why my views have been flexible and changing over time. Ultimately I think sustainability is all it boils down to.

This is a good take.

I won't begrudge anyone for trying to limit their environmental impact. (It's also fair to argue that modern ICE vehicle emissions are far from the problem and that we should be targeting older vehicles, commercial trucks, planes, and ships, etc. instead.) I appreciate and respect that you are looking to remain CARB legal on the road, and I wish more people were environmentally conscious; future generations will suffer for the way we treat our planet, and current and past ones already have -- probably more than we realize. Catless DPs bother me and I think removing cats altogether is disrespectful. They do impact other drivers. (We also have readily available aftermarket DPs for this platform with EPA-certified cats that improve performance and won't cause a CEL even without disabling the O2 sensor, and if people are chasing exhaust tone or power, I think those are a relatively defensible option, legality aside.)

For those looking to take a similar approach to yours, my understanding is that the Hondata OTS tune is also CARB legal. I don't have a horse in this race, but I think it's good to note that here, too, if we are giving points to Cobb for doing the same.

I have seen anecdotal reports (@Zygrene, etc.) of people having issues with fueling using the Cobb OTS tune, and while I don't remember specifics, there was a thread over on CivicXI that compared popular OTS tunes for this platform leveraging Hondata, and they found that all of them had pretty prevalent knock on 91. All that to say: I am surprised so many people are willing to spend $50k+ on a car and ~$1k to unlock the ECU, but won't spend a couple hundred for a custom tune that will better protect their investment. If I was to unlock, etc., regardless of which platform I chose, I would not be comfortable running an OTS tune; I would immediately pursue a custom one tailored to my regular fuel, etc.

Also, thanks for pointing out the ease of flashing with the Cobb AP. That's a huge plus, imo, and it's not one I was aware of.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

This is a good take.

I won't begrudge anyone for trying to limit their environmental impact. (It's also fair to argue that modern ICE vehicle emissions are far from the problem and that we should be targeting older vehicles, commercial trucks, planes, and ships, etc. instead.) I appreciate and respect that you are looking to remain CARB legal on the road, and I wish more people were environmentally conscious; future generations will suffer for the way we treat our planet, and current and past ones already have -- probably more than we realize. Catless DPs bother me and I think removing cats altogether is disrespectful; they do impact other drivers. (We also have readily available aftermarket DPs for this platform with EPA-certified cats that improve performance and won't cause a CEL even without disabling the O2 sensor, and if people are chasing exhaust tone or power, I think those are a relatively defensible option, legality aside.)

For those looking to take a similar approach to yours, my understanding is that the Hondata OTS tune is also CARB legal. I don't have a horse in this race, but I think it's good to note that here, too, if we are giving points to Cobb for doing the same.

I have seen anecdotal reports (@Zygrene, etc.) of people having issues with fueling using the Cobb OTS tune, and while I don't remember specifics, there was a thread over on CivicXI that compared popular OTS tunes for this platform leveraging Hondata, and they found that all of them had pretty prevalent knock on 91. All that to say: I am surprised so many people are willing to spend $50k+ on a car and ~$1k to unlock the ECU, but won't spend a couple hundred for a custom tune that will better protect their investment. If I was to unlock, etc., regardless of which platform I chose, I would not be comfortable running an OTS tune; I would immediately pursue a custom one tailored to my regular fuel, etc.

Also, thanks for pointing out the ease of flashing with the Cobb AP. That's a huge plus, imo, and it's not one I was aware of.

That's a great call out that hondata offers a carb certified option as well! I forgot about this when researching it before!

Here's a helpful link for anyone interested, https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html?epacarb_restriction.htm

I have not beat on the car for extended time yet, so I can't comment on the fueling issues. It's really important to note that there's almost always going to be knock present at lower rpm on 4cyl turbo engines. This has been a hot topic with manufacturers recently, and several of them (audi and merc for two) have spent billions to investigate root cause with a few indicators but nothing close to causal. This is called low speed pre-ignition, or lspi.

Is that what Zygrene and others are seeing? Fueling wise, the typical flash tune shouldn't be maxing out the duty cycle of the pumps or injectors.

I'll make sure to note this and grab some data logs when I take the car out to the track. I know I'll be doing at least two or three events over the summer, and currently looking like a friend wants to rent a track for another private day. The private days are great because I can just run the car until fuel is dry, so longer sessions aren't a big deal. The Integra can only do about 40 mins full tilt before the fuel lights up. It can do about 25-30mins before fuel is low enough that under high G turns it stutters.

My plan at the private day is to test full stock, Cobb map 0 (no power difference but adds features), and then stage 1. I'm most excited about trying out map 0 to feel what difference just the added features provide. I wouldn't be upset over a tune that makes stock power and torque all the way to 5.5k and then follows the stage 1 curve more closely. The one thing I didn't like about this car stock is how it reaches redline. Despite the decently sized single scroll turbo it just falls off hard after 5.5k. The tune helps fix that and I no longer feel like I'm "waiting" to get to redline.

This car just needs more exhaust noise, though. That's next on the list ?

 

[ABPDE5]

That's a great call out that hondata offers a carb certified option as well! I forgot about this when researching it before!

Here's a helpful link for anyone interested, https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html?epacarb_restriction.htm

I have not beat on the car for extended time yet, so I can't comment on the fueling issues. It's really important to note that there's almost always going to be knock present at lower rpm on 4cyl turbo engines. This has been a hot topic with manufacturers recently, and several of them (audi and merc for two) have spent billions to investigate root cause with a few indicators but nothing close to causal. This is called low speed pre-ignition, or lspi.

Is that what Zygrene and others are seeing? Fueling wise, the typical flash tune shouldn't be maxing out the duty cycle of the pumps or injectors.

I'll make sure to note this and grab some data logs when I take the car out to the track. I know I'll be doing at least two or three events over the summer, and currently looking like a friend wants to rent a track for another private day. The private days are great because I can just run the car until fuel is dry, so longer sessions aren't a big deal. The Integra can only do about 40 mins full tilt before the fuel lights up. It can do about 25-30mins before fuel is low enough that under high G turns it stutters.

My plan at the private day is to test full stock, Cobb map 0 (no power difference but adds features), and then stage 1. I'm most excited about trying out map 0 to feel what difference just the added features provide. I wouldn't be upset over a tune that makes stock power and torque all the way to 5.5k and then follows the stage 1 curve more closely. The one thing I didn't like about this car stock is how it reaches redline. Despite the decently sized single scroll turbo it just falls off hard after 5.5k. The tune helps fix that and I no longer feel like I'm "waiting" to get to redline.

This car just needs more exhaust noise, though. That's next on the list ?

Yeah, I also dislike how top-end power falls off on the stock calibration. Please continue to keep us posted re: your findings.

As far as knock on OTS tunes... it was not low rpm knock / lspi, but it occurred at high RPM under load. The thread I was recalling is here:
https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threa...on-of-tunes-for-stock-fl5-cars-round-2.56687/

I don't have specifics on the Cobb fueling issues. Zygrene mentioned it briefly in one of his videos (and stated someone with an FL5 who was also present had the same problems).

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Yeah, I also dislike how top-end power falls off on the stock calibration. Please continue to keep us posted re: your findings.

As far as knock on OTS tunes... it was not low rpm knock / l but it occurred at high RPM under load. The thread I was recalling is here:
https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threa...on-of-tunes-for-stock-fl5-cars-round-2.56687/

I don't have specifics on the Cobb fueling issues. Zygrene mentioned it briefly in one of his videos (and stated someone with an FL5 who was also present had the same problems).

Thanks for sharing!

It's really interesting all the knock was up high. I wonder if the stock "let's put a heatsink on the intake and stick it on top of the turbo" oem design was contributing to the knock as the turbo got hotter. That's also something else I'd love to test since the heat soak problem can easily be felt on the street. Stop and go traffic is very unkind to this car.

 

[optronix]

Here's the link to @Zygrene negative experience with an Accessport. Presents like the fuel cutoff but with over a half tank IIRC, folks in the comments immediately assigned fault to the AP.



I'm going to try Falken 660+. I was going to do Nankang CRSv2, but my primary use case is autocross and I think the Falkens are a better fit. I have to go up to 275 for 19" but I think that's fine. If I ever end up getting serious about taking this car to a real race track more often than maybe once a year I'll re-evaluate and probably make the move to 18s.

Also I bit the bullet and ordered the Invidia Q300 exhaust. I was assuming it was in stock but alas that's what I get for assuming, so I hope it gets shipped out soon so I can actually see if I can learn to love how this car sounds. I agree it's just too quiet, but I don't want more noise for the sake of noise; hopefully it's a pleasant noise but time will tell.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Here's the link to @Zygrene negative experience with an Accessport. Presents like the fuel cutoff but with over a half tank IIRC, folks in the comments immediately assigned fault to the AP.



I'm going to try Falken 660+. I was going to do Nankang CRSv2, but my primary use case is autocross and I think the Falkens are a better fit. I have to go up to 275 for 19" but I think that's fine. If I ever end up getting serious about taking this car to a real race track more often than maybe once a year I'll re-evaluate and probably make the move to 18s.

Also I bit the bullet and ordered the Invidia Q300 exhaust. I was assuming it was in stock but alas that's what I get for assuming, so I hope it gets shipped out soon so I can actually see if I can learn to love how this car sounds. I agree it's just too quiet, but I don't want more noise for the sake of noise; hopefully it's a pleasant noise but time will tell.

Thanks for the link!

I watched that 20 minute expedition on 1.5x speed, but really everything could have been summarized in a 3 min read. Not a knock on Zygrene, just my growing need to save every bit of my time. ?‍

Yeah, youboobers in comments are always worthwhile to disregard. 3 cars all with the same issue and 1 out of the 3 are tuned wouldn't make it a direct Cobb issue. More likely a fueling issue. Possibly bad fuel in the area or other factors.

Worth noting that in the video it appeared his limp mode was triggered down the front straight under braking, and typical emissions codes like that could easily be a result of a pcv flood. More boost, more speed, more G could all contribute to it, which is why a baffled oil pan is not a recommendation but a requirement for extended track use. The fuel rail code is likely a result of limp mode I'd guess.

Also worth noting, on a v730, that amount of camber, and that amount of spring, he should be pushing 1.3G in corners and 1.5G+ under braking. That's a really far cry from stock and the factory system is not designed for that G. Baffled oil pan and antisurge fueling are a must when you get into that pace. For a turbo car, wrapping the snail, the intake, downpipe, and heat reflective gold foil and duct tape around the radiator start to become critical as you spend more time on throttle. He has also improved his driving quite a bit, which is great to see, but will also contribute to the level of heatsoak and jerk he'll feel.

I'll be sure to sufficiently beat on it in the hot June events. Let's see if I can trigger any codes. The only ones I ever got before were the on track yellow "BRAKE" light, which simply indicated "brake pads are hot"... Can confirm, they were ?

 

[optronix]

Great feedback as usual. I was a little suspicious about assigning fault to the AccessPort, but I've always been a little sketched out on the OTS tunes. I had an AP on my STI, but it was protuned with bigger injectors. I caught myself overthinking all the time and staring at the A/F gauge but it never did give me any problems. I did have that car on track at Summit Point but it was my first ever time on track so I wasn't going very fast lol.

I'm looking forward to your build journey now that the DE5 has your full attention. Zygrene's vids are great but so far he's really the only one providing track-related content for this platform. I absolutely welcome the additional perspective, maybe inspire me to actually plan out and make it to an HPDE this year.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I'll leave these right here...

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Couldn't deal with the silence anymore, there's a new exhaust incoming.

 

[StingertimeNC]

I'll leave these right here...

Hey, do you have any pics of these wheels on the car? Thinking about a second set for the track. Would downsize to 18x9.5, 265/35 tires +43 offset.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Hey, do you have any pics of these wheels on the car? Thinking about a second set for the track. Would downsize to 18x9.5, 265/35 tires +43 offset.

I do. These are my winters and I threw on the track tires for now. Ideally I'd like to go to an 18x10.5 et47 with a 285/30.

These are the 18x9.5 et58. They fit great and torque steer is mostly unaffected.

 

[ABPDE5]

I do. These are my winters and I threw on the track tires for now. Ideally I'd like to go to an 18x10.5 et47 with a 285/30.

These are the 18x9.5 et58. They fit great and torque steer is mostly unaffected.

You wouldn't go 285/35 on 18s?

I am also eyeing Apex 10.5 et 47, but the HRC Titan 7 TS-5s at 18x10 et 55 look nice, too.

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