FL5 Civic Type R at VIR- bad wreck, car totaled

[StingertimeNC]

I follow this guy on You tube. seems like a good dude. hate to see this. Needless to say I will not be doing over 105 through turn 9 at VIR. (never had the balls anyway)
Maybe he took too much curbing and that threw the rear end out. That is a tough area as you're trying to move the car to the right side of the track, and then you have to shed speed before turn 10. (Although, I think he lost it prior to braking.) If the car isn't settled, the tail wiggles left on you when you get on the brakes. He was well over 110 mph when he lost control.

I will say this dude really moves that car on that track. (stock tune, with a few bolt ons) R comp tires. Hate to see this. A big reminder for me to take it easy.

 

[egxflash]

Oh wow that’s gnarly. I’ve been reading thru his build journal on civicxi.

Shame about the FL5 but glad he walked away from that.

 

[crepr12]

He walked away...Very lucky dude...

 

[mopar_man]

Holy crap! Glad he walked away.

 

[optronix]

I know he said it in the thread on XI, but this is why I pony up for the track insurance every single time.

One thing I've noticed in my own limited experience- I feel like there's no greater period of time I'm at risk of an off than when I'm passing other cars. It's like you're more focused on getting past the other car than you are on maintaining your speed and line, and based on the video I feel like that factor significantly contributed to this wreck.

Something for me to think about personally, as I feel like I've been guilty of this. It's like I'm actively trying to be courteous and it ultimately manifests to "letting your guard down". Probably the only positive element to a bad wreck like this, is we all can potentially learn from it.

Needless to say but I'll say it anyway - really sucks about the car, but absolutely fantastic that he walked away without significant bodily harm, or even financial ruin because of the insurance.

Next step though is I'm curious how track insurance will be for him from here on out. I can't really imagine it will be just as easy to snag another car and get back after it same as it's always been... at a minimum you'd have to think rates would skyrocket. Hopefully his claim goes smoothly, I think all of us who track at all should be paying close attention to how this insurance company handles this claim. We all should fully expect him to be completely reimbursed- that's why we pay the ~$450 or whatever extra for a given event... but the other implications like future insurability is what I'm really curious about.

 

[mopar_man]

Interesting you said that about passing. I watched the entire video and being ignorant of track driving I couldn’t help but wonder the same. It seemed like when he passed or was passed that it would be easy to not be as focused on your own line. Like when the Porsche passed him it seemed as if he lost focus a touch and was running that guys line and not his own.

 

[StingertimeNC]

I know he said it in the thread on XI, but this is why I pony up for the track insurance every single time.

One thing I've noticed in my own limited experience- I feel like there's no greater period of time I'm at risk of an off than when I'm passing other cars. It's like you're more focused on getting past the other car than you are on maintaining your speed and line, and based on the video I feel like that factor significantly contributed to this wreck.

Something for me to think about personally, as I feel like I've been guilty of this. It's like I'm actively trying to be courteous and it ultimately manifests to "letting your guard down". Probably the only positive element to a bad wreck like this, is we all can potentially learn from it.

Needless to say but I'll say it anyway - really sucks about the car, but absolutely fantastic that he walked away without significant bodily harm, or even financial ruin because of the insurance.

Next step though is I'm curious how track insurance will be for him from here on out. I can't really imagine it will be just as easy to snag another car and get back after it same as it's always been... at a minimum you'd have to think rates would skyrocket. Hopefully his claim goes smoothly, I think all of us who track at all should be paying close attention to how this insurance company handles this claim. We all should fully expect him to be completely reimbursed- that's why we pay the ~$450 or whatever extra for a given event... but the other implications like future insurability is what I'm really curious about.

Several very good points!
I know exactly what you mean about the passing situation. Typically more folks pass me, than the other way around, and when you're concentrating on them ,you certainly open yourself up to getting out of position or out of rythm. I've done it and I've seen it done in person. Hell one time we wound up 4 cars wide going into "bitch" corner. (entrance to the infield) No choice but for all of us to almost come to a stop on the track. Just inexperience, taking passess to late or not waiving them off, or even giving the point by way too late.

Insurance is a big question too. I usually use Lockton, and insure for what I paid for the car, but that includes a 10% deductible. Either way 5k out is better than 50k out.

 

[StingertimeNC]

Interesting you said that about passing. I watched the entire video and being ignorant of track driving I couldn’t help but wonder the same. It seemed like when he passed or was passed that it would be easy to not be as focused on your own line. Like when the Porsche passed him it seemed as if he lost focus a touch and was running that guys line and not his own.

Also a very good point. It's super easy to follow the car in front of you, vs. keeping the right line.

Not sure when this incident occured but the other piece is at the end of the day or even two day event, your brain just can't concentrate as well. Fatigue sets in and you just get exhausted from the stress of it all. My best runs usually come prior to lunch and usually on the first day.

 

[ChromaPop]

I know he said it in the thread on XI, but this is why I pony up for the track insurance every single time.

One thing I've noticed in my own limited experience- I feel like there's no greater period of time I'm at risk of an off than when I'm passing other cars. It's like you're more focused on getting past the other car than you are on maintaining your speed and line, and based on the video I feel like that factor significantly contributed to this wreck.

Something for me to think about personally, as I feel like I've been guilty of this. It's like I'm actively trying to be courteous and it ultimately manifests to "letting your guard down". Probably the only positive element to a bad wreck like this, is we all can potentially learn from it.

Needless to say but I'll say it anyway - really sucks about the car, but absolutely fantastic that he walked away without significant bodily harm, or even financial ruin because of the insurance.

Next step though is I'm curious how track insurance will be for him from here on out. I can't really imagine it will be just as easy to snag another car and get back after it same as it's always been... at a minimum you'd have to think rates would skyrocket. Hopefully his claim goes smoothly, I think all of us who track at all should be paying close attention to how this insurance company handles this claim. We all should fully expect him to be completely reimbursed- that's why we pay the ~$450 or whatever extra for a given event... but the other implications like future insurability is what I'm really curious about.

I am not so sure it was an issue with passing the car based on what I see. He was well passed and should have his focus by then, but if you watch the slow motion at the end, he starts drifting to the right without steering that way and then begins to try to steer left a bit but it seems like the car was not responding to the input. Tire failure or steering issue?

 

[StingertimeNC]

He is steering left but has no throttle input at this point. Engine braking is keeping the weight of the car forward, not allowing the rear to hook up. I can see wind as further exacurbating the push, as that is at a high point of the track. Unfortunately, at 110mph it's tough to push the throttle button when the car starts to lose it. That's a reason why I am reluctant to fully defeat the traction and stability control via the pedal dance. This is my daily driver and needs to make it home in one piece.

There are places at VIR where at least maintenance throttle is required, and this section of track is one of them. You have to at least keep the car neutral to maintain grip.

 

[optronix]

I am not so sure it was an issue with passing the car based on what I see. He was well passed and should have his focus by then, but if you watch the slow motion at the end, he starts drifting to the right without steering that way and then begins to try to steer left a bit but it seems like the car was not responding to the input. Tire failure or steering issue?

It's not about the moment he's past the car, it's that he's possibly accelerating more and/or taking a different line than he would have had the car not been there. Those actions leading up to the part where he went off is what I'm referring to- and it's definitely a real thing, happened to me last time I was out in fact. I very well may have had an off but I don't push nearly as hard as this guy, he's a self-described track addict and more hardcore than I'll ever be.

I'm still going to pay closer attention from here on out though. I'm not really suggesting that's what happened it's just something I noticed and choose as a takeaway.

Also a very good point. It's super easy to follow the car in front of you, vs. keeping the right line.

Not sure when this incident occured but the other piece is at the end of the day or even two day event, your brain just can't concentrate as well. Fatigue sets in and you just get exhausted from the stress of it all. My best runs usually come prior to lunch and usually on the first day.

Another great point, not sure it's relevant to why this guy went off but great point nonetheless. The longer you're out there the less focused you become. Anyone who's ever played Forza or Gran Turismo should know this... and honestly it's a huge factor in why I have yet to complete a full track day, and I don't sign up for multi-day events. I'm usually Audi 5000 shortly after lunch.

But that's just me- I don't typically notice too many other folks leaving early so I wouldn't necessarily advocate others to do it. I also have a "2 drink maximum" and all my friends were stoners growing up except for me, so maybe I just have a lower personal tolerance for things that affect my cognition. Also probably higher anxiety.

 

[Gregg]

Having been in a similar position (overdriving and writing off a street car) almost 25yrs ago I'm hesitant to cast aspersions, but in the laps leading up to the incident you can clearly see that he doesn't do a particularly good job of recognizing and adjusting to changing conditions...specifically his front tires going away. He continues induce more and more understeer in places like Oak Tree, Turn 14 and even coming out of the uphill esses lap after lap. He does this by continuing to apply more throttle through these complexes without adjusting his line to compensate. You do this by "opening up" your arc or, essentially, turning in later. A good indicator is that his Garmin Catalyst on he passenger side is is showing his delta grow and grow. Maybe he thought he could keep up with the Porsche or maybe he thought more throttle was the way to a faster lap time. But reading what your car is doing and adjusting your approach is key.

Slow in, fast out. At a lot of places he continued to try going faster in despite the signs and it made him slower mid corner and at exit.

Now, on to his incident. After passing the BMW out of Snake he does get back over to the right, but I'd argue that he turned in a few feet early. A few feet there is enough to really eff things up by the time you get to the top given the speed. As he's making the final right at the top of the esses, notice that he dials in a lot of extra steering to the right, very briefly inducing understeer. He then gets out of the throttle as some of you have mentioned, inducing the oversteer. Slightly later turn-ins for each part of that complex likely would have helped him. Straightening the wheel a small bit at the top instead of cranking the wheel and trying like mad to get to back to the right would have helped him. Maintaining throttle instead of dropping over 500 RPMS would have helped him.

All that said, I'm very glad he's OK. You approach South Bend (the left hander after the esses) faster than any other corner on the track and getting the car set up for it is challenging. At those speeds things happen very quickly and many times it is instinct and training that saves you and the car. I've been racing FWD cars for 20+ yrs and I still find it counterintuitive to mash the throttle when necessary, like here (this wasn't the street car referenced above, BTW):

 

[StingertimeNC]

Having been in a similar position (overdriving and writing off a street car) almost 25yrs ago I'm hesitant to cast aspersions, but in the laps leading up to the incident you can clearly see that he doesn't do a particularly good job of recognizing and adjusting to changing conditions...specifically his front tires going away. He continues induce more and more understeer in places like Oak Tree, Turn 14 and even coming out of the uphill esses lap after lap. He does this by continuing to apply more throttle through these complexes without adjusting his line to compensate. You do this by "opening up" your arc or, essentially, turning in later. A good indicator is that his Garmin Catalyst on he passenger side is is showing his delta grow and grow. Maybe he thought he could keep up with the Porsche or maybe he thought more throttle was the way to a faster lap time. But reading what your car is doing and adjusting your approach is key.

Slow in, fast out. At a lot of places he continued to try going faster in despite the signs and it made him slower mid corner and at exit.

Now, on to his incident. After passing the BMW out of Snake he does get back over to the right, but I'd argue that he turned in a few feet early. A few feet there is enough to really eff things up but the time you get to the top. As he's making the final right at the top of the esses, notice that he dials in a lot of extra steeing to the right, very briefly inducing understeer. He then gets out of the throttle as some of you have mentioned, inducing the oversteer. Slightly later turn-ins for each part of that complex likely would have helped him. Straightening the wheel a small bit at the top instead of cranking the wheel and trying like mad to get to back to the right would have helped him. Maintaining throttle instead of dropping over 500 RPMS would have helped him.

All that said, I'm very glad he's OK. You go approach South Bend faster than any other corner on the track and getting the car set up for it is challenging. At those speeds things happen very quickly and many times it is instinct and training that saves you and the car. I've been racing FWD cars for 20+ yrs and I still find it counterintuitive to mash the throttle when necessary, like here (this wasn't the street car referenced above, BTW):

Great Synopsis of the situation.

I'm driving at probably 90% of the car's capability through that section, and even then, if you are offline going into the esses, it becomes an excersise in scrubbing speed/coasting to get the car back on line prior to turn 9. If only he just decided to throw away turn 10 and use the short straight to slow down, once the car was settled.

He tried so hard to get back to the right so quickly.

All of this is why the fastest I've ever been on the full course is 2:19, and that was in a RWD car with closer to 500 HP. (street tires)

I'll be tip -toeing around next time I'm there.

Any chance you can come with me and teach me some stuff? LOL.

 

[Gregg]

Any chance you can come with me and teach me some stuff? LOL.

Definitely not from the passenger seat. I gave that up when people started showing up w/ cars that had more than 150hp.

If you were looking for an SCCA (race) comp license, you could have had me and a bunch of experienced racers (incl. three current and a few past National Champions) to point the way all weekend long at Summit Point.

 

[StingertimeNC]

Definitely not from the passenger seat. I gave that up when people started showing up w/ cars that had more than 150hp.

If you were looking for an SCCA (race) comp license, you could have had me and a bunch of experienced racers (incl. three and current and a few past National Champions) to point the way all weekend long at Summit Point.

LOL! I get it!

But, If I promise to be careful?

Definitely not out for any race licenses. Just some thrills.