StingertimeNC
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Pretty nice review on the ITS...
What a car we have!
What a car we have!
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Everyday Driver: Integra Type-S, Civic Type-R, Audi S3 comparison review
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optronix
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I was waiting for these guys' takes. Everyday Driver has a sort of unique style that does a great job of capturing the enthusiast mindset without diving off into the track rat deep end. I can't say I disagree with them a whole lot here, but I think they're a little tough on the Type R. Personally I think it's a perfectly suitable daily as long as you don't go near the +R button.
I think it's pretty clear at this stage in sports sedan evolution that the S3 is sort of a quasi-enthusiast car. It's just sporty enough for folks who enjoy the looks, want a sub 5-second 0-60, have cash to burn on the badge and don't really have that itch to have a true driver's car. It's important to note I had a 2016 S3 for a while as a daily and I truly enjoyed it for what it was, and arguably what it's best at- an augmentation to a true dedicated sports car. In my case it was a manual 981 Boxster GTS. If that's your plan, then the S3 is a perfect sporty daily. Just don't expect it to scratch the itch if you have it.
I think it's pretty clear at this stage in sports sedan evolution that the S3 is sort of a quasi-enthusiast car. It's just sporty enough for folks who enjoy the looks, want a sub 5-second 0-60, have cash to burn on the badge and don't really have that itch to have a true driver's car. It's important to note I had a 2016 S3 for a while as a daily and I truly enjoyed it for what it was, and arguably what it's best at- an augmentation to a true dedicated sports car. In my case it was a manual 981 Boxster GTS. If that's your plan, then the S3 is a perfect sporty daily. Just don't expect it to scratch the itch if you have it.
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StingertimeNC
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I agree with the above on the CTR, I would totally daily it. I'd been waiting 9 months for one when I got the call about the ITS.
My good friend just recently purchased the Audi S3, and I drove a GTI a couple of cars ago. I'm a big fan of what VW is putting out these days.
All that being said, there's just a feeling in the CTR/Type S that you don't get in other sub 75k cars. Like a blend of body control, engagement, handling and a connection to the car.
If I had the budget though, I would seriously look into the Porsche Cayman and the Audi RS 3/5 models.
My good friend just recently purchased the Audi S3, and I drove a GTI a couple of cars ago. I'm a big fan of what VW is putting out these days.
All that being said, there's just a feeling in the CTR/Type S that you don't get in other sub 75k cars. Like a blend of body control, engagement, handling and a connection to the car.
If I had the budget though, I would seriously look into the Porsche Cayman and the Audi RS 3/5 models.
PRDE5
Senior Member
The best part for me of these review videos is the comment section, while all the reviewers/owners like the ITS, there are always crazy comparisons in the comments. Also always the price debate, while I think this car is overpriced by 2-3k, I much rather pay 52k for the ITS than 50k+ for a FL5.
lumper
Senior Member
I really appreciate that these guys take into consideration reality.
You can't buy a CTR for MSRP, so when others end their reviews by saying, the ITS is $7k more than the CTR, I laugh.
But these guys remembered to include reality, and I appreciate that.
The CTR is an awesome car, as is the ITS, neither are perfect, Id change things in either or both, but when I look at the ACTUAL prices, for me, the ITS stands out.
I don't want to pay 49 to 54k$ for the CTR, personally, I would never go to the track, it just isn't in the cards for me at this stage of my life, so to buy a car that was engineered for the track over the street wouldn't make much sense, especially for the price.
To each his own, they are both great cars, but when you compare what you have to spend to buy either I think it paints a more realistic picture for enthusiast and would be buyers.
Solid review.
optronix
Senior Member
The ITS punches far above even the $75k mark, in my humble opinion. I had a B9.5 RS5 (@VarmintCong - not a Porsche!!!) and while that car did many things well, it was not a driver's car. Not really even close. It was just a great daily that happened to be capable of going really really fast, but it was completely numb when you turned the wheel. The transmission was also great for putting around town, but fell apart on a back road. I wouldn't even consider taking it on a race track, even though it would probably do quite well (the brakes would need instant attention though, FOR SURE). Audi's approach to "tuning out the weight" via the chassis is to reduce all feeling from driver inputs. Sure it can go around corners fast but it just isn't fun when you do it. The Acura NAILS that...
I haven't driven a G80 M3 but I'd have to imagine it's this car's closest competition from a driving dynamics perspective. I'd imagine it's much, much faster with the gobs of power these modern M engines are spitting out, rear wheel drive adds its own brand of fun, but steering and manual shifter feel would probably be a downgrade. And all of that for close to $100k (well over that for the Competition models...).
The RS3 is interesting. I haven't driven one but I did have the S3 as I mentioned, and with my experience from the RS5 I have to assume the RS3 would be somewhere in the middle there. Like the RS5 is more "fun" than the RS7 despite being less powerful, I would allow for some tolerance there with the RS3. But I still can't imagine the dynamics being better or even as good as the ITS, and the lack of manual kept me from even considering one. If there was an RS3 manual available, I'd probably own one. Same for the Giulia Quadrifoglio.
YouTube comment sections are pure madness. Stay away lest your sanity be slowly extracted with each deprived, uninformed take.
ABPDE5
Senior Member
I really don't understand the "FL5 is built for the track first; DE5 is built for the street first" mantra that keeps getting repeated. Let's be clear: both of these cars are primarily road cars that offer some track capability. The idea that either of these cars is a track car first is laughable.
Beyond that... the cars are essentially mechanically identical. Neither one is more track capable than the other, and both cars require the same modifications to reliably track aggressively with regularity.
The only real differences between these two cars are their price and their styling: pick the seats, suspension, and appearance that you want (I don't think the DE5's 5% stock power and 3% chassis rigidity advantages will manifest in any measurable way for 99.9% of drivers; the FL5's stiffer dampers might... I'd wager they probably don't, either).
Beyond that... the cars are essentially mechanically identical. Neither one is more track capable than the other, and both cars require the same modifications to reliably track aggressively with regularity.
The only real differences between these two cars are their price and their styling: pick the seats, suspension, and appearance that you want (I don't think the DE5's 5% stock power and 3% chassis rigidity advantages will manifest in any measurable way for 99.9% of drivers; the FL5's stiffer dampers might... I'd wager they probably don't, either).
optronix
Senior Member
I'm inclined to agree with you- but then that argument would effectively translate to something like the GT4. It's still a road car but some design choices were made specifically for those who are inclined to take it to the track. So I don't think the CTR being marketed as let's just say "track-oriented" is laughable at all.
Now that I think about it, it is kind of interesting actually; the 718 GT4 and GTS 4.0 are IMO a great analogy to the CTR and ITS. They're effectively the same cars, with some deviation allowed for track use. The primary difference with the Porsches though is the suspension is pretty radically different, there is some legit aero on the GT cars and the GT cars are available with carbon ceramic brakes and the GTS variants are not (you can actually get the carbon bucket seats in the GTS 4.0...). The CTR and ITS are not separated by hardware at all besides the seats... and weirdly the "non-track" variant gets less power where it's the other way around in the Porsches, but it's just limited to software that does feature a rev limit (7800 vs 8000) that brings the power down by ~15hp IIRC.
Where it really does get interesting though is that in most instrumented tests the GT4 indeed does get faster lap times- but they come standard with Cup2s. One could easily argue that if the GTS 4.0 was equipped with Cup2s the difference on some tracks would be negligible.
The GTS has far better manners on the street vs the GT4, although like the Type R, it's nothing heinous and still could be dailied easily by simply altering your tolerances.
While this is interesting for car nerds like us, all of it really boils down to personal preferences- and in the case of both the Honda/Acura twins and the Porsches, the "track" variants also fetch a premium in dealer mark up. If you think Honda is bad... last I checked it was a minimum $15k markup for GT4s, and I actually think they stopped making them in August so you're stuck with used at this point, where they're still going for easily 5 figures over MSRP in most cases.
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StingertimeNC
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Honestly think the ITS may be the better track car. Every review of the CTR, on the track, talks about how they need to put the dampers on the comfort setting to get the most out of the car. Plus the mid-range torque advantage the ITS offers allows it to pull harder out of corners without being at max rpm's. (see savage geese's review) Maybe you give up a bit of downforce without the big wing, but at anything under 100 mph that's probably negligable as well.
This is all speculation of course. I'm truly hoping Car and Driver has an ITS at VIR for their lightning lap this year. it will be cool to see what the same driver can do, although it will be on Pilot sport 4S vs. cup 2's.
This is all speculation of course. I'm truly hoping Car and Driver has an ITS at VIR for their lightning lap this year. it will be cool to see what the same driver can do, although it will be on Pilot sport 4S vs. cup 2's.
VarmintCong
Senior Member
***cough*** Porsche!
i always like these guys’ show, the cinematography really gets you a good idea of what the cars look like and their opinion always closely matches mine.
While I’m leaning Type R I totally agree if they’re both over $50k I’m getting the ITS.
I Love the previous gen S3/RS3, not a fan of the new one. It looks too much like the drones from Oblivion. I’d not buy an Audi anyway, as you said, they’re not drivers’ cars.
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optronix
Senior Member
I have to throw in a control every now and then to make sure you're paying attention. You passed!***cough*** Porsche!
i always like these guys’ show, the cinematography really gets you a good idea of what the cars look like and their opinion always closely matches mine.
While I’m leaning Type R I totally agree if they’re both over $50k I’m getting the ITS.
I Love the previous gen S3/RS3, not a fan of the new one. It looks too much like the drones from Oblivion. I’d not buy an Audi anyway, as you said, they’re not drivers’ cars.
darksi08
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All of the talk with people bringing the Audi into the mix makes me have to speak up... I had a 2018 RS3 for a little over a year. Aside from the sound and acceleration in a straight line, I absolutely hated that car. Even in the RS3 (though I know the new one should be much different, with the new AWD system), it just felt like a FWD car anywhere near the limit. If you were pushing it at all, it would just plow through corners like no one's business, and that was with the Dynamic Package, which came with the staggered tires. The STI I had before it (and the one I had after it) was far superior in everything except power delivery. And, just to clarify, I'm not talking about tossing it into a 90-degree curve at 100 mph like it's an Evo, I'm talking about taking curves at 40 that I could manage at 50-60 comfortably in the STI.***cough*** Porsche!
i always like these guys’ show, the cinematography really gets you a good idea of what the cars look like and their opinion always closely matches mine.
While I’m leaning Type R I totally agree if they’re both over $50k I’m getting the ITS.
I Love the previous gen S3/RS3, not a fan of the new one. It looks too much like the drones from Oblivion. I’d not buy an Audi anyway, as you said, they’re not drivers’ cars.
I've had a number of great cars - several STIs of all generations, GR Supra, 2022 X3 M Competition, Trackhawk, MK8 GTI 40th Anniversary, and my wife has had an M2 Competition and now has a Mini JCW hardtop - and all of that's just in the past couple of years. I actually had a Tesla Model S Plaid on order when I accidentally happened upon my ITS at MSRP while doing due diligence before taking delivery of the Tesla. Found a unicorn, so I pulled the trigger immediately.
Ranking overall for driving? M2 Comp, ITS, Mini JCW, Supra, STI for my top 5.
M2 Comp is just fantastic. Brutal, razor-sharp, and honestly just fantastic.
ITS is honestly the most fun car I've driven in a long, long time. It's insanely easy for a car with a manual trans, an absolute blast when you're running fast on a winding back road, and it's pretty quiet on the highway. I don't miss having AWD outside of the rain, genuinely. It's nearly as perfect as a car can get, in my opinion.
Mini JCW - this car is WAY more fun than the numbers on paper indicate. It's just an absolute blast, mostly because of the exaggerated caster making turn-in so insanely sharp. It's a blast, even though it definitely does not have the raw feeling that even the last-gen JCW had.
Supra - An absolute blast. Fast as hell in a straight line, corners insanely well, and I could still manage mid-30's mpg on the highway, no problem at all. If not for the ingress and egress, along with the absolutely terrible sound system, this would be my top car, period. More comfortable and easier to drive than the M2, for better or worse. I absolutely love the B58.
STI - I still absolutely love this car. Hydraulic power steering, a fantastic AWD system, great shifter, etc. With a tune and a wider tire/wheel combo, it's damn near perfect, if not for the gobs of turbo lag and just insanely slow response unless you're pounding the crap out of it. There is no other car on the planet I would rather be driving in the rain, period.
Now for the less-enjoyable stuff.
Trackhawk - If you're going at the right speed and punch it, it's just brilliant. Doing 35 and punch it? It's.... slow. Weird gearing in this thing. Definitely loved it though - the power helps hide every bit of the insane weight of this thing. Not a corner carver by any means, but definitely fun. Insane as it sounds, 700hp was not enough for this thing, I always felt like it needed more.
X3 M - Great vehicle overall. Fast as hell - faster than the Trackhawk. Cornering was insanely good, but there was so little steering feel, you never had the confidence to actually push it. The number of rattles and squeaks this thing had, in an $85k car, was egregious.
MK8 GTI - I know, you've all been waiting for this one. I hated this car. Hated it. The shifter, while vague, was good enough. The touch controls on the steering wheel were actually ok, until they weren't. I would often hit one button and it would activate the function from the button on the other side of the panel, or weird things would happen - like I would skip tracks on the music for it to decide to freak out and start jumping back and forth between songs for a minute before settling down. The touch controls are absolutely as bad as everyone says they are. The car was fantastic when being really pushed. Decent response, and pulled to redline no problem. The build quality of this thing was the worst I've seen in a long, long time, and I've had Teslas. Bad panel gaps, they don't even paint under the hood (there's overspray everywhere under there though, so they don't mask it off, either), they don't even give you an engine cover. The road noise in this thing was absolutely INSANE. Getting into my wife's JCW from the GTI felt like stepping into a luxury car, by comparison. I got an offer for what I paid, so sent this thing to pasture at 4k miles - but would have probably traded it even if I lost a few grand in it. I don't regret buying it, but I definitely did not like this car. Also, we've had a MK7.5 Golf R, along with a MK7 GTI Sport. This MK8 GTI was worse than those, by far. If I was going to buy another Golf R at this point, despite the trick rear diff on the MK8, I would go for a MK7.5 and mod the crap out of it instead.
One final note - Every BMW (or BMW-built) car I've owned - the M2, X3M, JCW, Supra - all exhibit the same annoying problem - constant wandering. There is not a single second you're driving one of those cars where you're not adjusting the steering. CONSTANT wandering. It's annoying, and tiring on long drives.
TL;DR - Don't buy an S3, or an RS3, GTI, or even a Golf R, and don't regret not buying one of those instead. The ITS is better and more fun to drive. If you've not owned one, DO regret not having an F87 M2 Competition or CS. THAT'S a car worth buying.
VarmintCong
Senior Member
So your RS3 didn't have the drift mode the Mk8 Golf R has? That's supposed to make the Golf R more fun.
I'm not sure I've driven an Audi since the B5 S4, both test drives and a buddy's heavily modified one. As awesome as that car was modified, stock it didn't compare that well to the E36 or E46 M3s at the time in terms of fun, and Audi seats always seem to be rock hard.
I don't think any of the non-M cars has a chance to beat the ITS. And the M cars are more money. They're also too ugly to own in this generation.
darksi08
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No, but it was not the current generation RS3. The last B5 S4 I've driven was 100% more fun and more raw than my RS3 was, if that gives you any indication. If I was looking purely for a good AWD performance car right now, I would go for a GR Corolla or low-mileage Focus RS, and just deal with the rawness on the daily drive. That's not to say I didn't consider the new RS3, because that engine is an absolute dream, but they're hard to find, and even harder to find for MSRP, and I'm just terrified that it's not going to be measurably better than my last one - which is probably reasonable.
Honestly, the only car BMW makes (under their own brand) that I would buy these days, purely from an aesthetics point of view, is the M240i. I like the 8-series, but they are too big, and the M5 is all gone until the new one launches.
optronix
Senior Member
My takeaway here is that you miss your M2C.
I 100% agree, if I didn't need the extra two doors for my beast of a dog I'd have one and keep it forever. Or a CS but it is tough to justify the premium over the Competition.
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