"Crunchiness" in all gears - normal or not?

[Victorofhavoc]

I heard about the parking brake drama with some of the obd scanners that have the ability of putting the parking brake in maintenance mode. May just skip this and make this the rotary shop’s problem.

Yeah I get that. For me, I need the ability to change them trackside... Otherwise I'm tossing pads that are half used because they won't make it through a weekend. Removing the electric motor is the simplest way to do it, and most reliable ime. I still need to find a crank down that can fit to try it. Might be faster... Maybe

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[UWU-mancer]

Yeah I get that. For me, I need the ability to change them trackside... Otherwise I'm tossing pads that are half used because they won't make it through a weekend. Removing the electric motor is the simplest way to do it, and most reliable ime. I still need to find a crank down that can fit to try it. Might be faster... Maybe

Oh and push shut? That’ll work well.

 

[APBonABP]

Well shit. That’s awesome. Cuz guess what? I too am not an expert in this subject @Victorofhavoc we need an adult!!!!!

Good call, good call!

They are no good for synchros.

Friction modifiers typically reduce friction for auto transmissions and synchros need friction.

You probably won't notice for a few tens of thousands of miles, but then things will get notchy, grindy, and particularly bad when cold. The subaru community was all about mixing fluids for a while and they used to go for 60-100k miles and then suddenly the synchros would lock up. I stupidly was one of the people who ran shitty mixes in cold weather and had to slip the clutch to warm up the fluid to even get it out of first when cold to get to reverse.

I recommend motul mt80 or mt90 depending on your use case.

Thanks! You know you're never allowed to sell this car now that we all depend on you for knowledge, right?

I’m going to try to take a look under the dash at the pedal and see if adjusting it is needed fluid will be due in 20k miles anyways so we shall see after the one and if not, then the other

I've adjusted that pedal more times than I care to count now.

My general advice is to do your adjustments (if any) after the car's been driven at operating temperature for a few minutes, as I've found that the heat causes enough expansion to take up a decent amount of the slack in the clutch pedal, so if you remove all (or most) of the slack from a cold pedal, once at operating temperature you'll end up with a clutch that slips even when you're fully off the pedal.

It sounds obvious but I initially underestimated the difference it makes.

 

[SeanIsElsewhere]

Good call, good call!





Thanks! You know you're never allowed to sell this car now that we all depend on you for knowledge, right?





I've adjusted that pedal more times than I care to count now.

My general advice is to do your adjustments (if any) after the car's been driven at operating temperature for a few minutes, as I've found that the heat causes enough expansion to take up a decent amount of the slack in the clutch pedal, so if you remove all (or most) of the slack from a cold pedal, once at operating temperature you'll end up with a clutch that slips even when you're fully off the pedal.

It sounds obvious but I initially underestimated the difference it makes.

That’s good to know! Didn’t think of that myself.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

That’s good to know! Didn’t think of that myself.

That's also a very good reason to ensure you're fully bleeding the clutch every time you bleed the brakes. The clutch line gets really hot too, and boiled fluid at the clutch acts like boiled fluid at the brake pedal... Engagement sinks way, way down and you can totally lock yourself out of gear.

I have actually done this on track before in another car. Really, really sucks to have to coast around until it cools enough that you can engage and get to pit road.

 

[ABPDE5]

They are no good for synchros.

Friction modifiers typically reduce friction for auto transmissions and synchros need friction.

You probably won't notice for a few tens of thousands of miles, but then things will get notchy, grindy, and particularly bad when cold. The subaru community was all about mixing fluids for a while and they used to go for 60-100k miles and then suddenly the synchros would lock up. I stupidly was one of the people who ran shitty mixes in cold weather and had to slip the clutch to warm up the fluid to even get it out of first when cold to get to reverse.

I recommend motul mt80 or mt90 depending on your use case.

Ugh... looks like I'm swapping my fluid again

MT80/90 are Redline options, though, not Motul? Wouldn't Motylgear be appropriate from Motul?

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Ugh... looks like I'm swapping my fluid again

MT80/90 are Redline options, though, not Motul? Wouldn't Motylgear be appropriate from Motul?

You're correct! My mistake, not sure why I typed that! I used the redline last time and I like redline fluids a lot, they can just get pricey and hard to get. I think the motul equivalent is gear 300 or something, though any of their gl4/gl5 should be good. I would just aim for your temp use case. Don't go thick/heavy if you have cold winters or you don't do much track work. You're just robbing yourself of power for no reason doing that.

 

[DK 24LC ITS]

As for changing the rear brakes it seems like there are 3-4 options. Someone stated you can do something manually with the ebrake to manually put into service mode, but that didn't work for me. I don't have a scan tool, but these are the same style brakes I had on my Legacy and I was able to do those fine by the other 2 methods.

Method 1: pull the back of the motor and use an E11 socket to wind it back. (Counter clockwise from the back).

Method 2: use the brake compressor with the two dowels on them to wind the caliper in (clockwise from the front). Once it bottoms out you can compress the rest of the way if need be. In my legacy that wasn't required, but in this it seemed like it was.

I tried one option on one side and one on the other. Method 2 was much quicker and easier, requires less tooling and less time. You can even do it with needle nose pliers if you're careful.

 

[APBonABP]

It's been a while but I ultimately ended up selling my ITS primarily because of this issue. I want to sort of synopsize what I tried so maybe others will find it useful. I typically only tried one fix at a time for a month or two to narrow down the effects of individual fixes. I'm not gonna run this through an LLM so it may be kind of stream-of-consciousness.

I think there are a multitude of reasons different people experience "crunchiness" which vary from vehicle to vehicle; I suspect some are easily fixable and some are deeper in the gearbox itself, leading to the vast breadth of experiences people have with this issue (along with the intrinsic subjectivity of it).

So here's what I tried, what I expected, and what the result was. Everything will be scoped to how it improved (or didn't improve) the issue, so don't take this as an endorsement or warning with respect to other aspects of the products. I'll also note that everything about this is ultimately personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.


Adjustment of the clutch master cylinder (CMC) plunger/push-rod and clutch pedal throw

• Expectation: First thing I tried, I hoped this would fix the issue.
• Reality: This made a pretty huge difference but I couldn't adjust it enough to fix the crunchiness entirely without causing other issues.

Acuity 4-way adjustable shifter

• Expectation: I didn't really expect this to improve the issue.
• Reality: It did not improve the issue, but it was pleasant to use.

BilletWorkz Fusion weighted shift knob

• Expectation: I thought this might help a little. Not sure why.
• Reality: Doesn't really help. It might dull the sensation of the "crunch" but since it's heavier (~1 lb / ~0.5 kg) it takes more effort to shift. This gearbox responds best to a light touch, so it was at odds with reducing the crunchiness. I still liked it a lot, though.

Clutch master cylinder replacement with another OEM unit

• Expectation: I thought this might improve the issue.
• Reality: Didn't really improve things all that much.

Clutch master cylinder replacement with ClutchMasters CMC w/ flow control valve

• Expectation: I felt there was a good chance this would fix the issue.
• Reality: Another minor improvement. I found this CMC had much more variability between when it was cold versus warmed up than the OE master cylinder. I later removed the flow control valve which improved the variability but didn't noticeably improve the shifting.

Aftermarket gear oil (AcDelco SynchroMesh FM 10-4014)

• Expectation: This had great reviews, so I thought it would be a large improvement.
• Reality: This made slow shifts a little better but high-RPM shifts much worse, which makes sense because as Victorhavoc noted, it's working against the synchros. I'd already paid for it though so I thought I'd give it a shot until my next oil change.

CDV-deleted clutch slave cylinder

• Expectation: I didn't think this would fix anything because it's only supposed to affect fluid flow in one direction.
• Reality: This was the last thing I tried. Maybe I was desperate for a resolution by that point, but this actually seemed to make a significant difference. The only thing I can figure is that there's very little room in the inlet chamber of the slave cylinder, so removing the little plastic delay valve/damper allows a larger volume of fluid to act on the piston and therefore more fully disengage the clutch (similar to adjusting the CMC push-rod). I dunno, I'm not a hydraulic engineer or fluid dynamics expert.

I think that pretty much covers just about every common remedy you see around for this. Your mileage may (read: likely will) vary. Hopefully though this proves helpful to someone, somehow.

 

[UWU-mancer]

It's been a while but I ultimately ended up selling my ITS primarily because of this issue. I want to sort of synopsize what I tried so maybe others will find it useful. I typically only tried one fix at a time for a month or two to narrow down the effects of individual fixes. I'm not gonna run this through an LLM so it may be kind of stream-of-consciousness.

I think there are a multitude of reasons different people experience "crunchiness" which vary from vehicle to vehicle; I suspect some are easily fixable and some are deeper in the gearbox itself, leading to the vast breadth of experiences people have with this issue (along with the intrinsic subjectivity of it).

So here's what I tried, what I expected, and what the result was. Everything will be scoped to how it improved (or didn't improve) the issue, so don't take this as an endorsement or warning with respect to other aspects of the products. I'll also note that everything about this is ultimately personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.


Adjustment of the clutch master cylinder (CMC) plunger/push-rod and clutch pedal throw

• Expectation: First thing I tried, I hoped this would fix the issue.
• Reality: This made a pretty huge difference but I couldn't adjust it enough to fix the crunchiness entirely without causing other issues.

Acuity 4-way adjustable shifter

• Expectation: I didn't really expect this to improve the issue.
• Reality: It did not improve the issue, but it was pleasant to use.

BilletWorkz Fusion weighted shift knob

• Expectation: I thought this might help a little. Not sure why.
• Reality: Doesn't really help. It might dull the sensation of the "crunch" but since it's heavier (~1 lb / ~0.5 kg) it takes more effort to shift. This gearbox responds best to a light touch, so it was at odds with reducing the crunchiness. I still liked it a lot, though.

Clutch master cylinder replacement with another OEM unit

• Expectation: I thought this might improve the issue.
• Reality: Didn't really improve things all that much.

Clutch master cylinder replacement with ClutchMasters CMC w/ flow control valve

• Expectation: I felt there was a good chance this would fix the issue.
• Reality: Another minor improvement. I found this CMC had much more variability between when it was cold versus warmed up than the OE master cylinder. I later removed the flow control valve which improved the variability but didn't noticeably improve the shifting.

Aftermarket gear oil (AcDelco SynchroMesh FM 10-4014)

• Expectation: This had great reviews, so I thought it would be a large improvement.
• Reality: This made slow shifts a little better but high-RPM shifts much worse, which makes sense because as Victorhavoc noted, it's working against the synchros. I'd already paid for it though so I thought I'd give it a shot until my next oil change.

CDV-deleted clutch slave cylinder

• Expectation: I didn't think this would fix anything because it's only supposed to affect fluid flow in one direction.
• Reality: This was the last thing I tried. Maybe I was desperate for a resolution by that point, but this actually seemed to make a significant difference. The only thing I can figure is that there's very little room in the inlet chamber of the slave cylinder, so removing the little plastic delay valve/damper allows a larger volume of fluid to act on the piston and therefore more fully disengage the clutch (similar to adjusting the CMC push-rod). I dunno, I'm not a hydraulic engineer or fluid dynamics expert.

I think that pretty much covers just about every common remedy you see around for this. Your mileage may (read: likely will) vary. Hopefully though this proves helpful to someone, somehow.

Wow bro. To get rid of a whole ass car for this issue. That’s crazy. I’m glad I haven’t had the same crunchy issue. I’d end up going your route, doing a bunch, still not being satisfied and just selling the car. I’d occasionally get crunch from first to second and from third to second. A few months ago I did the trans and filled with amsoil synchromesh. Totally solved the occasional crunch I’ve been having. It hasn’t happened since.

what did U replace the integra with?

 

[MotoFanatic]

@APBonABP , thanks for posting your findings. I have been driving manual since the beginning of time and seeing that manufacturers are moving away from it I was hoping to get my hands on one before they are completely gone. I was also hoping to use this to teach my kids how to drive manual.

The Integra A-Spec was on the top of the list. I test drove one a week ago and it had the crunchy feeling and , on top of that, the clutch didn't feel like what I remember Honda's feeling like in the past. Needless to say I was a little disappointed and tabled my decision. Especially after reading this thread. lol

Then I started looking into the Jetta GLI and Hyundai Elantra N and they seem to have their own issues. Also, AI rates the Integra's manual transmission high above everybody else. Now I am back to looking at the Integra.

Should I or shouldn't I. That is the question. Thanks for reading my first post.

 

[DK 24LC ITS]

I think it's all about perspective. I wonder if the OP had driven 3 integras if maybe he'd have found his was somehow damaged/defective and the others were fine. My first car was a 1990 Honda Accord and it was stick. My ITS is very reminiscent of that shifter. It's mechanical, yes, and it is isn't perfect...sometimes it doesn't want to hit reverse until I let it roll more. Sometimes second is a little crunchy. 1st isn't always ready to go...but I feel everything and it's a pleasure to drive the 98% of the time it feels right. I also have an s2000, my dad has a 72 Datsun, a 93 vette, and I recently drove a ct4-v blackwing. Admittedly the s2k is beat to shit and we're putting it back to stock after some guy put a twin disc in it, but the Integra is more mechanical than all those save for the Datsun. The CT4-V was perfect. Not a single crunch, grind, hesitation, nothing ...but it felt like a videogame. I am teaching my wife to drive stick now and of all the cars the Integra is the one to choose...just go with it, not everyone has the experience or preferences of the OP.

 

[APBonABP]

Wow bro. To get rid of a whole ass car for this issue. That’s crazy. I’m glad I haven’t had the same crunchy issue. I’d end up going your route, doing a bunch, still not being satisfied and just selling the car. I’d occasionally get crunch from first to second and from third to second. A few months ago I did the trans and filled with amsoil synchromesh. Totally solved the occasional crunch I’ve been having. It hasn’t happened since.

what did U replace the integra with?

I'm normally very financially prudent so I shocked myself a little with it, too. I'll admit it was impulsive and honestly stupid - I'm sure a million other people wouldn't even be bothered by it - but the manual option was definitely the biggest factor that led to me choosing the ITS so for it to be so tactile-y unpleasant was a huge let down. After that I started thinking "well, even if I sort this issue out, I still need to spend another few thousand to get the exhaust how I want it, the soundproofing done, the dealership won't even investigate some of the rattles because 'it's a race car so it will make noise', etc." and came to the conclusion that I'd be better off to cut my losses.

I bought a very lightly used RS3. I've always lusted after that 5-cylinder sound and missed the boat on the TT RS, so when I saw the RS3 was getting an interior redesign in 2027 that I don't like I made sure not to be left waving on the shores. It's my first German car and I'm THRILLED with it. It's definitely a very different car from the ITS, but it's definitely my favorite car I've ever owned now.

@APBonABP , thanks for posting your findings. I have been driving manual since the beginning of time and seeing that manufacturers are moving away from it I was hoping to get my hands on one before they are completely gone. I was also hoping to use this to teach my kids how to drive manual.

The Integra A-Spec was on the top of the list. I test drove one a week ago and it had the crunchy feeling and , on top of that, the clutch didn't feel like what I remember Honda's feeling like in the past. Needless to say I was a little disappointed and tabled my decision. Especially after reading this thread. lol

Then I started looking into the Jetta GLI and Hyundai Elantra N and they seem to have their own issues. Also, AI rates the Integra's manual transmission high above everybody else. Now I am back to looking at the Integra.

Should I or shouldn't I. That is the question. Thanks for reading my first post.

Even after everything I've written here, I wouldn't push you to entirely discard the Integra from consideration, although I feel the A-Spec has stiffer competition in its segment than the Type S does in its own (I see you're coming from a Mazda, which I regard as an excellent option myself but I do understand that they only offer a manual on trims that aren't as nicely-equipped as the Integra or on the Miata, which may not be a practical enough choice for you).

My advice would be to drive the EXACT Integra you plan to purchase (my test driver was not). "Crunch" is very common in 2nd gear and if it only presents itself there, you're probably okay unless you're like me and very bothered by the feeling.

I think it's all about perspective. I wonder if the OP had driven 3 integras if maybe he'd have found his was somehow damaged/defective and the others were fine. My first car was a 1990 Honda Accord and it was stick. My ITS is very reminiscent of that shifter. It's mechanical, yes, and it is isn't perfect...sometimes it doesn't want to hit reverse until I let it roll more. Sometimes second is a little crunchy. 1st isn't always ready to go...but I feel everything and it's a pleasure to drive the 98% of the time it feels right. I also have an s2000, my dad has a 72 Datsun, a 93 vette, and I recently drove a ct4-v blackwing. Admittedly the s2k is beat to shit and we're putting it back to stock after some guy put a twin disc in it, but the Integra is more mechanical than all those save for the Datsun. The CT4-V was perfect. Not a single crunch, grind, hesitation, nothing ...but it felt like a videogame. I am teaching my wife to drive stick now and of all the cars the Integra is the one to choose...just go with it, not everyone has the experience or preferences of the OP.

I agree. I did drive a few other examples and while they did exhibit the behavior to some degree, they seemed much less so than my specific car. Perhaps more precisely, I knew why those cars did it when they did it (e.g. I "pushed" it into gear rather than "guiding" it into gear), whereas mine seemed persistent, random, and unavoidable through any combination of technique, parts, or wizardry.

As above, I don't want anyone to outright disregard the Integra in spite of my experience (which I do believe as you suggested was specific to my car) and I hope it doesn't come off that way; the Type S specifically is a remarkable car and may well be one of the last of its kind.

If anything, I'm hoping my prior post can help people with this issue to find a satisfactory solution to the issue if it bothers them.

 

[UWU-mancer]

I'm normally very financially prudent so I shocked myself a little with it, too. I'll admit it was impulsive and honestly stupid - I'm sure a million other people wouldn't even be bothered by it - but the manual option was definitely the biggest factor that led to me choosing the ITS so for it to be so tactile-y unpleasant was a huge let down. After that I started thinking "well, even if I sort this issue out, I still need to spend another few thousand to get the exhaust how I want it, the soundproofing done, the dealership won't even investigate some of the rattles because 'it's a race car so it will make noise', etc." and came to the conclusion that I'd be better off to cut my losses.

I bought a very lightly used RS3. I've always lusted after that 5-cylinder sound and missed the boat on the TT RS, so when I saw the RS3 was getting an interior redesign in 2027 that I don't like I made sure not to be left waving on the shores. It's my first German car and I'm THRILLED with it. It's definitely a very different car from the ITS, but it's definitely my favorite car I've ever owned now.





Even after everything I've written here, I wouldn't push you to entirely discard the Integra from consideration, although I feel the A-Spec has stiffer competition in its segment than the Type S does in its own (I see you're coming from a Mazda, which I regard as an excellent option myself but I do understand that they only offer a manual on trims that aren't as nicely-equipped as the Integra or on the Miata, which may not be a practical enough choice for you).

My advice would be to drive the EXACT Integra you plan to purchase (my test driver was not). "Crunch" is very common in 2nd gear and if it only presents itself there, you're probably okay unless you're like me and very bothered by the feeling.





I agree. I did drive a few other examples and while they did exhibit the behavior to some degree, they seemed much less so than my specific car. Perhaps more precisely, I knew why those cars did it when they did it (e.g. I "pushed" it into gear rather than "guiding" it into gear), whereas mine seemed persistent, random, and unavoidable through any combination of technique, parts, or wizardry.

As above, I don't want anyone to outright disregard the Integra in spite of my experience (which I do believe as you suggested was specific to my car) and I hope it doesn't come off that way; the Type S specifically is a remarkable car and may well be one of the last of its kind.

If anything, I'm hoping my prior post can help people with this issue to find a satisfactory solution to the issue if it bothers them.

Grats. That 5 cylinder sounds amazing!

 

[TheRas900]

The manual on my A Spec Tech is the whole reason I got the car. That said, the manual on my '07 TSX was better for sure. There are some things I prefer about the GLI manual over the Integra's shifter, which was never the case with prior Acura/Honda models.

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