1st Track Day ITS - Watkins Glen

[evanescent03]

Had a great time at Watkins Glen. First track day with the ITS. Used Pilot Sport 4S and Carbotech XP10/XP8 on front/rear and castrol SRF.

Take homes:
- I use about 3 gallons of gas per 10 minutes; so need to top off after every 20 minute session (I did get the fuel cut limp mode and lost rev matching until disconnecting the battery and then driving around the paddock)
- Pilot Sport 4S need more than 33psi hot (was rolling over a lot on sidewalls)
- I ran through a set of XP10s on the front in nine 20 minute sessions and got some brake judder suggesting overheating (two friends use XP10s on their FK8 & FL5 and get much more life out of them)
- 0w20 seemed to work fine in 90degree heat; also forgot to turn off AC numerous times.
- I was quite a bit quicker in my friend's FL5 on RT660s (200 TW) and COBB OTS tune (about 4 seconds)
- it's very hard to lose control in a FWD car, encourages hoonigan behaviors
- i miss a V8 for feedback and added enjoyment/drama
- the car did great overall and I had a blast with it ... more fun than I expected ... adding more tire will help even more!

Prep for next time (Summit Point and possibly a fall trip to VIR) includes:
- new front rotors to cure the brake judder (jutter?), girodisc vs stock
- thinking about trying XP12 pads for the front, will keep XP8 on the rear but buy an extra set to keep on hand
- once i destroy these tires i'll probably do the RT660, they felt great on my bud's FL5.

enjoy the photos. there was a couple GT3RS cars sandbagging in the Hooked on Driving B group, lol. Meant for newer drivers and/or slower cars with some experience. I normally run in C group but i also normally have 500-700hp lol. i wanted to step down but still had these guys mixing it up. was hanging with the Artura pretty closely except in the straights where that thing is on another planet and i was longing to have my C8 Z06 back to chase him down lol. really fun weekend though, lots of sun.

Anyone use an online vendor for OEM stuff that they really like? I may just keep running OEM rotors and keep a second set around. If they get pad transfer i can swap 'em out, get them turned or just sand 'em down and see if that cures it but i'll have a backup incase they're too far gone.


catalyst videos to follow.

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[Ktrw]

0W-20 in 90 degree weather on track is insane imo. The viscosity at the oil temps your likely hitting has to be pretty low. Feels like asking for trouble not using something at least 30 grade on track in hot weather for a *0W-20 spec* car.

Considering getting some 200TW tires like the Rt660. How did they feel in terms of sidewall? I'm actually able to push my car on PS4S in some back road turns to the point where I feel the sidewall rolling over quite a bit. Debating getting something more aggressive for summer.

 

[evanescent03]

0W-20 in 90 degree weather on track is insane imo. The viscosity at the oil temps your likely hitting has to be pretty low. Feels like asking for trouble not using something at least 30 grade on track in hot weather for a *0W-20 spec* car.

Considering getting some 200TW tires like the Rt660. How did they feel in terms of sidewall? I'm actually able to push my car on PS4S in some back road turns to the point where I feel the sidewall rolling over quite a bit. Debating getting something more aggressive for summer.

The oil debate rages on for sure… I haven’t seen anything conclusive enough to make me switch … open to options though.

RT660 was miles better than the PS4S .. I was probably under pressured but I was afraid of them overheating and chunking apart in the heat (which didn’t happen). I have wear pretty far down the sidewalk running 33-35PSI hot. Maybe the wear was from me hammering down on “warmup laps” though when PSI was low. I’m not totally sure. RT660 has been serving my FL5 friend well and he’s tracked a lot more than I have.

 

[Ktrw]

The oil debate rages on for sure… I haven’t seen anything conclusive enough to make me switch … open to options though.

RT660 was miles better than the PS4S .. I was probably under pressured but I was afraid of them overheating and chunking apart in the heat (which didn’t happen). I have wear pretty far down the sidewalk running 33-35PSI hot. Maybe the wear was from me hammering down on “warmup laps” though when PSI was low. I’m not totally sure. RT660 has been serving my FL5 friend well and he’s tracked a lot more than I have.

Just saw someone on IG lose oil pressure and blow up their GR Corolla running 0W-20 on track with seemingly no other cause. Also 20 grade viscosities at track temps are going to be like running a 16 grade or lower at street temps so that just seems like a terrible idea. Oil film thickness to bearing clearance is a pretty well known relationship so I don't think that takes much convincing.

Did you end up changing pressures on your PS4S at the track? Just curious if you landed on a pressure you felt helped. I know some folks have said like 40+ hot or something helped with the sidewalks but that seems a bit high.

 

[akoza]

I tracked mine for the first time 2 weekends ago, at Autobahn Country Club (full circuit) in 95 degrees. I'm completely stock and just wanted to get a feel for the car as this was my first time on the track in almost 4 years, and first time ever in this car.

I didn't notice as much fuel consumption during the three 20-minute sessions (I was able to end the day with a little under half a tank) but I took it easy for the first session. I got more confident and more aggressive during the second and third but probably still not a full 10/10ths. I still had to drive home after and didn't want my stock brake fluid to boil over.

As far as tire pressures, I started around 35psi cold to use as a baseline (also on PS4S). I found the sweet spot to be right around 41-42 hot. By the end of the day the tires got up to 44-45psi and I could feel the car sliding around quite a bit under heavy cornering. Not sure how much of that was the pressures and how much of it was the PS4Ss getting greasy.

P.S. Awesome pics! I wish there was someone doing photography when I went but unfortunately there wasn't.

Had a great time at Watkins Glen. First track day with the ITS. Used Pilot Sport 4S and Carbotech XP10/XP8 on front/rear and castrol SRF.

Take homes:
- I use about 3 gallons of gas per 10 minutes; so need to top off after every 20 minute session (I did get the fuel cut limp mode and lost rev matching until disconnecting the battery and then driving around the paddock)
- Pilot Sport 4S need more than 33psi hot (was rolling over a lot on sidewalls)
- I ran through a set of XP10s on the front in nine 20 minute sessions and got some brake judder suggesting overheating (two friends use XP10s on their FK8 & FL5 and get much more life out of them)
- 0w20 seemed to work fine in 90degree heat; also forgot to turn off AC numerous times.
- I was quite a bit quicker in my friend's FL5 on RT660s (200 TW) and COBB OTS tune (about 4 seconds)
- it's very hard to lose control in a FWD car, encourages hoonigan behaviors
- i miss a V8 for feedback and added enjoyment/drama
- the car did great overall and I had a blast with it ... more fun than I expected ... adding more tire will help even more!

Prep for next time (Summit Point and possibly a fall trip to VIR) includes:
- new front rotors to cure the brake judder (jutter?), girodisc vs stock
- thinking about trying XP12 pads for the front, will keep XP8 on the rear but buy an extra set to keep on hand
- once i destroy these tires i'll probably do the RT660, they felt great on my bud's FL5.

enjoy the photos. there was a couple GT3RS cars sandbagging in the Hooked on Driving B group, lol. Meant for newer drivers and/or slower cars with some experience. I normally run in C group but i also normally have 500-700hp lol. i wanted to step down but still had these guys mixing it up. was hanging with the Artura pretty closely except in the straights where that thing is on another planet and i was longing to have my C8 Z06 back to chase him down lol. really fun weekend though, lots of sun.

Anyone use an online vendor for OEM stuff that they really like? I may just keep running OEM rotors and keep a second set around. If they get pad transfer i can swap 'em out, get them turned or just sand 'em down and see if that cures it but i'll have a backup incase they're too far gone.


catalyst videos to follow.

 

[elh0102]

Did you end up changing pressures on your PS4S at the track? Just curious if you landed on a pressure you felt helped. I know some folks have said like 40+ hot or something helped with the sidewalks but that seems a bit high.

Tires, cars, and drivers are all important variables, but most of the street tires I used on track performed best with hot pressures in the 38-40 psi range. Mine were not front drivers, another big variable, and I find it believable that the best front pressure may be in the top of that range, or more.

 

[whtciv2k]

I’ve been ordering from alldiscountparts.com for oem stuff. They’ve been awesome.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Yeah for pressure, 30s hot on a Michelin street tire is going to ride on the rims through corners. Especially with these tiny sidewalls, you want about the door pressure cold. First time I took the car out I started with door pressure and it worked it's way to 44/40 and that was honestly spot on for the dt1 ps4s.

As far as oil thickness, I wouldn't be too concerned. Keeping shear down is more important than keeping pressure high and modern cars are designed to run on thinner oils. From what I heard, several race engine builders have moved to thinner oil since it robs less power, shears less, and modern synthetics can tolerate very high temps. They actually expect oil to operate at near 300F peaks. Granted I understand they ran 5w30, not 0w20, but still it has been an interesting trend.

Glad to see you taking the car out! Not it doesn't have the oomph of a v8 or the sound of a high rpm NA, but with an exhaust it sounds okay and the chassis feedback rocks.

Rt660 are a fast tire but they also fall off faster ime. Grm posted a compare page of various tires that's nice. I chose a potenza race recently for testing/exploring... More comfy than ps4s, quieter than ps4s, better sustained grip, better braking confidence, heat tolerance is exceptional, but cost can soar.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Just some additional thoughts on tire pressures since it sounds like you guys are technical and will appreciate it... If you're used to a FR sports car you're probably used to relatively flat and low pressures. An FF car on the other hand carries a lot more load and force up front. Consider 62% front weight of a 3200lb car that under braking can move enough weight onto the front tires to pick up a rear and still lighten the other one. That's anywhere from 81 to ~90% of the total mass up front on those two tires...one more than the other usually.

This is why they're 265mm tires and why the dt1 ps4s is constructed with a stiffer sidewall (and so much louder than other standard ps4s). This is also a fairly porky car for what it is, sitting at easily 3400lbs with full fuel and driver.

Ultimately to combat this and still have room left in the tire for turning and acceleration grip, the pressure in the tire needs to go up in correspondence to the load it's carrying. Hoosier will recommend 40+ psi hot on an R7 for a fwd car. Toyo will recommend 40+ cold! This is also why fwd cars really love stiff sidewall tires. The its thankfully comes with enough negative camber capability from factory to ride on pretty much any 200tw tire with consistent wear and no rolling over, which is a problem for FF cars on grippy tires usually.

If you flip the car backwards, you have a Porsche 911, and similar things apply in reverse for them with most tires. I've seen Porsche guys (the fast ones, not the average pca goer) run rear pressures on a toyo RR starting at 45 psi. Wild! But it works.

 

[StingertimeNC]

Pressures in the mid 40's up front has been my experience as well. Last three events I ran the 275/35 Conti extreme contact 02's and definitely needed at least 45 PSI hot to keep the fronts from rolling at VIR. And that's on a drop running approx -2 camber all around.
Motul RBF660 brake fluid and stock rotors, Paragon R5 pads front and P3 Pads rear. Solid setup with no issues at VIR. I've been through tons of trial and error with brake pads. If they get juddery, take the car out for a drive when the car is cold and you have track pads on and do some really hard stops. If the brakes are cold, it will clean the uneven deposits right off. Then go through a re-bedding process. The one I've found that works great is 2nd gear, 40 mph down to 10 mph rather aggressively. Repeat until you smell those puppies cooking. Probably 20 times or so. Then drive for 10+ minutes at highway speeds if possible with no stopping to cool everything down. You should have some nice even pad transfer.

I've done this on stock rotors, switching between street pads and track pads at least 4 times, and it's worked every time. The other thing I try to do is take it really easy on my first warm up lap to try and let the brakes come up to temp, before I start hammering.

Lastly, I just got a full set of rotors from Rock Auto for $208 dollars including shipping. All 4 rotors!

A fast FL5 driver/Instructor is running them on his car with great success. He's the second person to tell me, "get blanks from Auto Zone." Pads and fluid are all we need. After a year or two, rinse and repeat. I have 11 track days on the stock rotors and the fronts are very cracked/checked, although I think I could get another couple of days out of them. But for $200, happy to replace them.

 

[elh0102]

Anyone use an online vendor for OEM stuff that they really like? I may just keep running OEM rotors and keep a second set around. If they get pad transfer i can swap 'em out, get them turned or just sand 'em down and see if that cures it but i'll have a backup incase they're too far gone.


kk

When I was doing active track events, I put on track pads before leaving home, which is about 65 miles from VIR. After the event, I would leave the track pads on and drive home. Since the track compounds work (and transfer) and higher temps, by the time I got home, the cooler temps had allowed the pads to scrub the rotors clean. Of course, they didn't work really well when cold, so I was careful in my drive home and tried to allow generous stopping distances. And once in the neighborhood, the brake squeal would send kids and moms running, but the rotors were clean.

 

[evanescent03]

Good input guys, thanks.

Dialing tire pressures was something I totally neglected this trip. I'm definitely used to running them much lower in all of my previous tracked cars. I've wasted so much money on cars, parts, etc that I felt obligated to use up the PS4S tires on these wheels before upgrading. RT660 due to familiarity is attractive but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the Potenza Race; the Kumho Ecsta V730 also looks like it did well across the boards so maybe i'll sample those guys. For now, the PS4S are serviceable, just not great. I think the higher PSI is something that will help out quite a bit, looking forward to that change. Also this is the first car I've had in a while that I can rotate tires front to rear as well! love that.

I've been dailying the car the past couple of days but still have that dang vibration. I'll try the technique of hard braking with cold brakes and see if that helps. Ordered some DBA blanks from KNS along with some XP12s to see how those work for me.

This car is definitely easy to push hard with confidence .. really had fun especially once i got over the V8 which i'll continue to gripe about lol. it really is harder to know what the RPMs are doing when it's quiet but as I got to know the car/speed/track better I got to know what gear to use in different areas and didn't need to rely on the auditory feedback.

Oh and another thing i would want if i tracked this car a lot would be a better seat. I've had very few stock seats that are great at supporting while on the track (BMW buckets, Porsche buckets, Camaro SS1LE Recaros in descending performance/feel), but these are definitely not meant for it. not sure i want to go down that road because i think I may keep this as more of a street car and the stockers work well for daily use ... i'll be watching what y'all are doing for seats though, lol.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

So far on the potenza race I have approximately 12 sessions, with 9 of them being on a rough surface that is known for eating tires. The fronts are at 4.5-6/32nds nice and evenly across from inside to outside. Zero bad shoulder wear. This is with 2.1 neg camber up front with 0 toe. This is the type of wear I would expect out of a tire on this kind of setup. The rears are 6/32nds even across. I expect they will give another 12 sessions. This is pretty solid for the pace it puts out, especially when considering it will peak 1.4G and maintain 1.2G in corners.

The ps4s would also peak 1.4G but could only sustain about 1.1G.

The race is a good tire, handles well, precise at the limit, but just a bit vague on corner exit. To be fair, this car loses a lot of feel on corner out as the front lifts and diff starts fighting, but this tire just becomes a hair dartier there than something razor sharp like an re71.

Cost wise it can get up there fast, but tirerack had some decent deals recently. At their full cost I'd just go to the Hoosier track attack if you're chasing lap times. If you're chasing consistency the conti ec force is one of the best. The race is between the two.

I've driven the rt660 on a lightweight rwd aero platform and I consistently cooked them by lap 5 on a hot open day. They're a great tire the first 4 laps, but after that it was a lot like the direzza z3 where I spent the rest of the session slowing down every corner to keep them from overheating, and by extension then cooking the brakes because I had to be on them more. If you're spending time in traffic, they'll give you a chance to cool them down, but if it's wide open they're not as heat tolerant as the race, ecf, or others in that range. Again, great tire, but for track heat tolerance I wish they gave just a bit more.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Here are photos of the race with 12 sessions and 1500 total street miles on the.

 

[optronix]

Good stuff, about time. I swear I thought your car was silver... but I think I also remember you saying you got another one, but can't remember the reason.

I echo everyone's sentiments about the PS4S. It's a serviceable tire on track, but as you become more comfortable they start to quickly show their limits. And yes, they need more pressure than you'd think on these 19s, even at autocross speeds.

I've also decided to eat up the OEM tires before upgrading, and landed on the RT660 myself- mostly due to available sizes in 19". Nankang CRSv2 are also still in consideration. If I get more serious I'll buy some 18s and slap Bridgestones on them... but I hear the Potenzas and Hoosiers are the new hotness so I'd have to give them some thought too.

Also 100% agreed on the seats. I am constantly trying to convince myself one way or the other that I'm either accepting to be stuck with these seats, or dead set on upgrading them. At least one of us, @dockleryxk has decided to try the FL5 seats. Others @ender_ong has gone the aftermarket route. I still don't know what I want to do, although there are plenty of very appealing aftermarket seats that have my attention. I just don't know if it's worth the cost and effort to upgrade if I'm only going to make it to the track 1-2 times a year, if that... because as much hate as these seats get, that's genuinely the only time I notice them being insufficient. They're objectively great (for me) in any other circumstance. I do wish they looked a bit better but they get the job done- unless you're on a track.

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