Intercoolers for DE5

[Jcoco]

I ended up with the PWR intercooler.
Currently just have Hondata 93 basemap but looking into tuning options and possibly a turbo upgrade. That being said I'm happy with how the car drives right now.

Thanks for the input, I have already ordered the PRL kit, so I will see how that goes and worse come to worse I will swap out for something lighter, hoping with a tune and turbo the throttle response will be better if not resolved. Will keep you all posted!

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[UWU-mancer]

Quick question-

Why?

More specifically, what specific benefit are you looking to gain by replacing the OEM intercooler?

So far I've seen something about throttle response... and weight, which the PRL is a net-negative... it could be viewed as a gate to "reliable" 500 horsepower... and maybe aesthetics, that the OEM intercooler might not have enough "presence". Am I missing anything?

Because of all the forum prowling I've been doing since I discovered this platform, I have yet to see any conclusive, data-backed evidence that it's worth considering doing anything at all to the OEM intercooler, and to the contrary the PRL intercooler in particular seems to be linked to at least a few actual overheating issues on track.

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I'm asking for evidence that goes into the willingness to modify this component for an expectation of potential gain. So far my hypothesis is that it's assumed to be necessary to get big power out of it and perhaps there's truth behind that... but for anyone not looking for a dyno queen they're pretty much pointless and could actually be detrimental.

The stock intercooler is like 400 cubic inches. That’s literally enough to cool down 400-430 whp Easily if you don’t track and only hit the occasional canyon road every blue moon. If tracking, I wouldn’t take the car beyond 350-360whp on the stock intercooler.

im totally with you. If you’re not swapping the turbo you gotta be careful how big you go. Pressure drop is a thing

I for one want to upgrade mine for metal end tanks but don’t want to go too big. Since I’m never going to tune or track.

 

[Jcoco]

The stock intercooler is like 400 cubic inches. That’s literally enough to cool down 400-430 whp Easily if you don’t track and only hit the occasional canyon road every blue moon. If tracking, I wouldn’t take the car beyond 350-360whp on the stock intercooler.

im totally with you. If you’re not swapping the turbo you gotta be careful how big you go. Pressure drop is a thing

I for one want to upgrade mine for metal end tanks but don’t want to go too big. Since I’m never going to tune or track.

I agree with if you are not tuning or tracking. I don’t really see my self tracking since it is my daily. I would maybe track once twice a year. But I am tuned and getting ready for turbo and fueling. So targeting about 500-550 hp so that’s why I’m not as hesitant to upgrade now hehe

 

[UWU-mancer]

I agree with if you are not tuning or tracking. I don’t really see my self tracking since it is my daily. I would maybe track once twice a year. But I am tuned and getting ready for turbo and fueling. So targeting about 500-550 hp so that’s why I’m not as hesitant to upgrade now hehe

Oh I’d definitely look into 500-550 cubic inch upgrade for sure. Have fun and be safe

 

[Jcoco]

Thank you, yessir! Will keep everyone posted here with the PRL kit and give some feedback soon! Kit arrives tomorrow, so hopefully will have it on this weekend.

 

[Ktrw]

There is a simple reason to get an aftermarket intercooler and it's for lower IATs. You can see your IAT temps with an OBD reader. I've been observing my IATs for months on the back roads between pulls and once things are heat soaked, and the PRL intercooler has lowered my max IAT2 delta from ambient by at least 15-20 degrees. On throttle IAT2s are also much lower. I have ZERO throttle difference between stock and PRL. PRL IC and charge pipes, which was actually a pretty easy install, though a little time consuming, and throttle response is absolutely identical to stock. Maybe a boost leak or a hondata base map quirk is causing those issues.

The stock intercooler doesn't do that great of a job at maintaining the power level of the car, because it can't handle the heat load and your IATs creep up and you lose power potential from combustion due to that.

I considered other intercooler options as well but the BF price of the PRL unit made it easy because I know spending 2-3x more is going to do nothing for IATs as basically any aftermarket unit will have better performance than stock from what I've seen. Probably no real notable differences going to other units other than weight, which is nice, but I don't really care to spend a ton more when this is a well designed unit. From my experience I think you should feel good about it, @Jcoco.

 

[Jcoco]

There is a simple reason to get an aftermarket intercooler and it's for lower IATs. You can see your IAT temps with an OBD reader. I've been observing my IATs for months on the back roads between pulls and once things are heat soaked, and the PRL intercooler has lowered my max IAT2 delta from ambient by at least 15-20 degrees. On throttle IAT2s are also much lower. I have ZERO throttle difference between stock and PRL. PRL IC and charge pipes, which was actually a pretty easy install, though a little time consuming, and throttle response is absolutely identical to stock. Maybe a boost leak or a hondata base map quirk is causing those issues.

The stock intercooler doesn't do that great of a job at maintaining the power level of the car, because it can't handle the heat load and your IATs creep up and you lose power potential from combustion due to that.

I considered other intercooler options as well but the BF price of the PRL unit made it easy because I know spending 2-3x more is going to do nothing for IATs as basically any aftermarket unit will have better performance than stock from what I've seen. From my experience I think you should feel good about it, @Jcoco.

Amazing! Thank you! I didn’t have enough time to get it installed last weekend. So will definitely do it this weekend. Along with black badges and WOT cooling plate. Super excited and appreciate the feedback!

 

[Ktrw]

Amazing! Thank you! I didn’t have enough time to get it installed last weekend. So will definitely do it this weekend. Along with black badges and WOT cooling plate. Super excited and appreciate the feedback!

You might wanna watch a few videos on bumper removal/IC install for this car just so you know what's up. The video from @koatic was helpful, he shows there's a clip in the engine bay you need to make sure you don't miss before actually trying to pull the bumper off. Very minor thing but there's a little piece that can break if you don't.



Also I just semi carefully pulled on the bumper like they did in this video to get the bumper tabs to release.



I was really dreading the install, but with those videos in mind it was actually surprisingly easy compared to my spring install and downpipe experience ?.

I really like my WOT cooling plate as well, but the rivnuts on mine were complete garbage so I had to replace both of them on the front.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

There is a simple reason to get an aftermarket intercooler and it's for lower IATs. You can see your IAT temps with an OBD reader. I've been observing my IATs for months on the back roads between pulls and once things are heat soaked, and the PRL intercooler has lowered my max IAT2 delta from ambient by at least 15-20 degrees. On throttle IAT2s are also much lower. I have ZERO throttle difference between stock and PRL. PRL IC and charge pipes, which was actually a pretty easy install, though a little time consuming, and throttle response is absolutely identical to stock. Maybe a boost leak or a hondata base map quirk is causing those issues.

The stock intercooler doesn't do that great of a job at maintaining the power level of the car, because it can't handle the heat load and your IATs creep up and you lose power potential from combustion due to that.

I considered other intercooler options as well but the BF price of the PRL unit made it easy because I know spending 2-3x more is going to do nothing for IATs as basically any aftermarket unit will have better performance than stock from what I've seen. Probably no real notable differences going to other units other than weight, which is nice, but I don't really care to spend a ton more when this is a well designed unit. From my experience I think you should feel good about it, @Jcoco.

Your IAT should 100% be your measure against "needing" an intercooler!

I'll add a few things, though:

There is no direct intercooler size to horsepower holding calculation. It has NOTHING to do with sizing. You could theoretically have no intercooler and just have a well designed pipe with a peltier system and achieve the same effect. Even more efficient than air to air would be moving to a full water to air system.

Heat is generated primarily from the turbo on this platform and some radiant from the engine. If you insulate the turbo (and especially the intake pipe right above it) you can also reduce IAT, especially in the off throttle to on throttle instances where a bigger intercooler leads to more turbo lag.

Don't forget it's about getting heat OUT of the intake system! This means a bigger intercooler won't cool better, but will increase the time until it's heat soaked. To properly solve the problem air flow in and out needs to be managed. Seal off the grill intake to the intercooler stackand you get higher pressure and more flow over the intercooler. Expand or improve the hood louvre air evacuation and you get more cooling from more airflow as well as better aero.

Some back road runs or quarter mile stuff are very different from a track beating. On back roads you get up to speed generating heat and then slow down or stop. This is actually harder on your IAT and turbo than track use because you're putting heat into the system and then not moving fast enough to get airflow over the intercooler and intake. Under track use you get the turbo to an efficiency range and then keep it there. The engine block will see a lot more heat and stress than you'd get on the street and this is where water temps become a lot more critical. If you block air to the radiator then it doesn't matter how great your IAT are.

Also keep in mind your AC system... If it's running, it's generating heat up front. Some fun runs on a highway or quarter mile you'll add some heat soak, so ideally wrapping anything facing the condenser in gold foil will help dramatically keep heat at bay. On track, when you go WOT, the clutch on the condenser kicks out and you're not pumping anymore... This is REALLY bad when you go to grid with ac blasting in summer and then turn it off or forget to before going out. Ideally, you want your heat on full blast when you're driving the car hard, because that helps pull heat out of the engine/radiator.

Keep in mind many of the tcr cars use factory intercoolers and they're pushing typically 8.5-9: 1 power to weigh ratio. No ac and dedicated ducting, yes, but otherwise factory designs. The Honda one in particular uses oe intercooler, bigger radiator, and no condenser for a car that can run cool indefinitely at much higher paces than a road car. They also don't run the intake on top of the hottest thing in the engine bay.

 

[optronix]

If you block air to the radiator then it doesn't matter how great your IAT are.

This is my single biggest concern with considering an aftermarket intercooler. There are plenty of examples on the Civic forums of people overheating in track settings with the PRL in particular... and I'm pretty sure I recall @Zygrene overheated on his first track day after the intercooler install. I believe he subsequently uninstalled and hasn't had an issue since but I admit I can't recall for sure. He sometimes weighs in on this forum so perhaps he can clear that up with actual anecdotal evidence.

In any case, I do occasionally notice heat soak in this car during autocross and it would be nice to clear that up, but not at the cost of cutting a track day short.

 

[StingertimeNC]

I need to get a turbo blanket! I've notice power being pulled in afternoon track sessions over 70 degrees ambient temp. I was thinking an intercooler may help, but definitely not interested in blocking any of the radiator.

I know @pointbypatrol is running the PRL intercooler and had oil temp issues until he installed the PWR triple pass radiator, and removed the front mounted air intake snorkel feeding the intake. He's running an aftermarket turbo too.

 

[Ktrw]

This is my single biggest concern with considering an aftermarket intercooler. There are plenty of examples on the Civic forums of people overheating in track settings with the PRL in particular... and I'm pretty sure I recall @Zygrene overheated on his first track day after the intercooler install. I believe he subsequently uninstalled and hasn't had an issue since but I admit I can't recall for sure. He sometimes weighs in on this forum so perhaps he can clear that up with actual anecdotal evidence.

In any case, I do occasionally notice heat soak in this car during autocross and it would be nice to clear that up, but not at the cost of cutting a track day short.

I would argue that aftermarket ICs could lead to higher coolant/oil temps because of the lower IATs that allow the car to maintain higher power levels for extended durations. I know the main concern is the IC reducing the cooling efficiency to the radiator, but I think the additional power could be a significant factor as well.

PRL has some unfortunately blurry graphs of their WOT dyno tests between stock and their unit, showing the power loss. IIRC it was something like a 40whp difference once the system was heat soaked. Obviously not a gain in peak horsepower period, just that the car doesn't have to pull timing or lower boost targets as much.

If you're going to track your car and run sessions long enough to hit high coolant temps (230-240), then you should probably upgrade your cooling system anyway. I would rather maintain power levels that the engine can produce and then manage that additional heat.

The WOT cooling plate might be a good first option for those who don't want to start upgrading radiators and adding oil coolers. I think it's a good idea to get an OBD reader, I use the MX+ (could use a flashpro or something), and see if your IATs and coolant temps are reasonable. I think IATs 30-40F above ambient or more, depending on conditions and driving habits, show serious room for improvement.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I would argue that aftermarket ICs could lead to higher coolant/oil temps because of the lower IATs that allow the car to maintain higher power levels for extended durations. I know the main concern is the IC reducing the cooling efficiency to the radiator, but I think the additional power could be a significant factor as well.

PRL has some unfortunately blurry graphs of their WOT dyno tests between stock and their unit, showing the power loss. IIRC it was something like a 40whp difference once the system was heat soaked. Obviously not a gain in peak horsepower period, just that the car doesn't have to pull timing or lower boost targets as much.

If you're going to track your car and run sessions long enough to hit high coolant temps (230-240), then you should probably upgrade your cooling system anyway. I would rather maintain power levels that the engine can produce and then manage that additional heat.

The WOT cooling plate might be a good first option for those who don't want to start upgrading radiators and adding oil coolers. I think it's a good idea to get an OBD reader, I use the MX+ (could use a flashpro or something), and see if your IATs and coolant temps are reasonable. I think IATs 30-40F above ambient or more, depending on conditions and driving habits, show serious room for improvement.

The assumption you're making is that a larger intercooler keeps iat lower over time. You're increasing the time to heatsoak certainly, but whether that's 2 mins or 5mins is hard to know without back to back testing. Eventually, under track use where you're wot quite a bit it will saturate.

You have to get the heat out.

Keep in mind the factory hood louvre helps get air out, but if you add air resistance up front from a larger intercooler you also reduce the louvre efficiency from less air flowing through. This leads to more heat build up.

It's all a balancing act, and the Honda engineers did a good job packaging in most areas. They had nowhere to go with the intake unfortunately, but the rest of the system is pretty well sorted.

 

[Ktrw]

The assumption you're making is that a larger intercooler keeps iat lower over time. You're increasing the time to heatsoak certainly, but whether that's 2 mins or 5mins is hard to know without back to back testing. Eventually, under track use where you're wot quite a bit it will saturate.

You have to get the heat out.

Keep in mind the factory hood louvre helps get air out, but if you add air resistance up front from a larger intercooler you also reduce the louvre efficiency from less air flowing through. This leads to more heat build up.

It's all a balancing act, and the Honda engineers did a good job packaging in most areas. They had nowhere to go with the intake unfortunately, but the rest of the system is pretty well sorted.

I'm not making any assumptions about intercooler sizing. My entire argument is based on observations of my IATs and what PRL showed. PRL showed that with their IC, the heat soaked IC outlet temps were lower than the stock IC, while that testing day had warmer ambient temps.

Not an automotive engineer but in my job I model, simulate, and calculate nuclear reactor thermal hydraulics all day long. I do have a good sense of how fluid flow and heat transfer occur in mechanical systems. Just bringing that up because it's not something I'm clueless about. All I'm looking at and basing my thoughts on is the data I'm seeing (pretty limited but it's something) and first party results (PRL).

I do wish I had the time and money to put temperature and pressure sensors at inlets and outlets in a controlled setting so I could really simulate and calculate differences because that would be AWESOME but this is just a hobby. Hoping once I get a flashpro I can do a little more.

https://prlmotorsports.com/blogs/news/2023-honda-civic-type-r-fl5-intercooler-upgrade-testing-data

Pretty big difference showed by PRL in that blog post.

Similar to what you said about the additional resistance though, that made me want to get something like the cooling plate. Was a bit concerned with it generating some lift but there's plenty of people running it on track and I haven't observed any adverse effects at decent speeds even on some slightly sketchy bumpy back roads. Having the bottom available for heat removal along with the hood makes me feel a bit better about total heat rejected from the engine bay.

 

[Ktrw]

This thread reminded me of a post I saw a while back from the "Honda Type R Product Reviews" FB page. It's a private group I think, so I can't really post a useful link to it, but they posted some interesting data from their test car with an RV660 running like 500whp+ with different intercoolers. I normalized the data they posted since I think that is a bit more useful for comparisons. The RV6 IC is seemingly a pretty good tube and fin upgrade, but the PRL IC performs better in this test. Though that page noted that the trend as more back-to-back WOT 4th gears are performed, eventually on track the RV6 IC ends up being a little bit better. You can see the gradient change toward the upper rev range that looks like it would lead to the RV6 performing better like they said. Personally don't think this is a strong argument for one being significantly better than the other though.

Test conditions:
The data shown is from many 4th gear pulls over many hours and consolidated. What we are seeing are as follows:
• Ambient temp of 45F
• IAT2/MAF of 65F flat
• IAT/MAP 90-80-105F
• Delta 25-15-40F


TPR charts:

Normalized results, lower IAT is better:

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