no benefit to the LSD in the 6MT?

[STL]

https://www.caranddriver.com/acura/integra-2023
Car and Driver's handling measurements seem to suggest the LSD in the 6MT version of the Integra is somewhat worthless. The heavier CVT version (coming in at 3144 lbs) pulled 0.90g on the skidpad, while the 6MT (at 3062 lbs) could only manage 0.88g. If the LSD was implemented correctly on the Integra then it should clearly translate to better testing numbers than the car without it, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

Sadly, I found more numbers to substantiate the theory.

MotorTrend's numbers for a 2023 CVT Integra:

LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.92 g​

FIGURE EIGHT: 26.6 sec @ 0.67 g​

And for a 2023 6MT Integra:

LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.87 g​

FIGURE EIGHT: 27.2 sec @ 0.63 g​

Their review of the 6MT Teg even states the following:

The Integra's 0.87-g skidpad average is about what's expected for the class, but the Acura's figure-eight time of 27.2 seconds at 0.63 g average doesn't impress, considering its rivals run the lap in the 26-second range. Our test team was frustrated by meddling traction control, which never seems to truly turn off and prevents full power unless the steering wheel is straight. Such interference negates the differential's benefit in on-limit driving.

Out on the road, the Integra is willing to play up to a point. Its tidy size and weight let it flow between corners, but the verve it initially presents evaporates if you ask too much of it. Instead, the Integra becomes overwhelmed by understeer and imprecision. Truly sporty cars come across as a vivid conduit between driver and road—the new Integra doesn't.

AHM really should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this to come to fruition! They had to have seen this during their testing of the Integra, but obviously they chose to just ignore it. I am in the market to replace my daily-driver 2006 TSX 6MT and was initially thinking the Integra might be it -- but this (along with several other head-scratching bad decisions by Acura) definitely gives me pause!

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[creaturemachine]

Wow they still use skidpads.

 

[DE4Willyyyy]

I mean, if personal anecdotes are of any use, I came from an RSX Type S which had an open diff, and the difference is pretty drastic. exiting a corner is a lot more stable, and you could definitely gas it a lot more without much understeer.

 

[whtciv2k]

Wow they still use skidpads.

that’s always how they’ve measured lateral g forces.

 

[TheRas900]

I sold my 07 TSX 6MT (great cars!) about 1.5 years before I got my Integra A Spec 6MT. I loved my TSX, it was an amazing car. I also love the Integra, and it feels more similar to the TSX than any other car I have tried. There are things I prefer about each.

While the steering heft of the TSX was better, I certainly feel more grip from the LSD in fast turns from the Integra. Try it, I think you will enjoy.

 

[elh0102]

I don't think you can interpret those results as indicating that the LSD is of no value. Those are measures of mechanical grip under steady-state power. Throttle application is very measured and gentle. The dynamics are very different than corner entry and exit on track, where the value of LSD is proven. Any driver with a good feel of the track and car will appreciate the difference the first lap.

 

[Waitforit]

Sounds like they didn't do the pedal dance to fully turn off traction control, but rather pushing the button.

 

[SilverRocket]

I don't think you can interpret those results as indicating that the LSD is of no value. Those are measures of mechanical grip under steady-state power. Throttle application is very measured and gentle. The dynamics are very different than corner entry and exit on track, where the value of LSD is proven. Any driver with a good feel of the track and car will appreciate the difference the first lap.

Great post, I came to say more or less the same thing. The LSD is there to propel you out of a sharp, lower speed corner. Not only limited to the track but you even feel the difference in you try to power through a 90 degree right hander on the street. Also a bit of extra capability in the wet and snow.

 

[slowcountry]

I think this issue is vastly improved on with just a front tower strut. Adding the rear tower strut just makes it even more gravy.

So that'd be my take - it should come with a front tower strut.

 

[creaturemachine]

that’s always how they’ve measured lateral g forces.

It's pointless from a real-world performance perspective, unless you enjoy driving in tight circles. Like yeah, the LSD probably causes understeer in idiotic conditions like that, but which one puts power down better out of a turn? Build a test track and publish lap times.

 

[whtciv2k]

It's pointless from a real-world performance perspective, unless you enjoy driving in tight circles. Like yeah, the LSD probably causes understeer in idiotic conditions like that, but which one puts power down better out of a turn? Build a test track and publish lap times.

I think it measures measure how much grip is possible with a chassis, suspension, tire setup, no?
Anyway, my point was that they always include it as part of performance specs.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I think it measures measure how much grip is possible with a chassis, suspension, tire setup, no?
Anyway, my point was that they always include it as part of performance specs.

I would consider the car's alignment and tire pressure more than anything. All else being equal (suspension, tire, tire age, driver, day and temperature, etc) the biggest impact to a skidpad rating comes from alignment and tire pressures. From what I've seen, these cars have very loose tolerance for factory alignment spec. Mine came with two corners out of alignment, one dramatically so. Enough to cause a lot of understeer when turning one way.

I take publication numbers with a grain of salt. Imagine comparing 10 cars in one day. Normally, the fastest time for a car is late morning on a cool day. It's easy to warp numbers and I've experienced 5-10s differences within a few hours of sessions on track. A tire with 2000 miles on it can be 2s slower than a new tire on a 2min course. By 10k miles it will be 4s slower. Pub cars can be anywhere from brand new to several k miles.

That said, the argument for traction control intervening speaks more for poor driver than poor car. If it's kicking in, the driver exceeded the capability of the tires. By slowing down just a little, the tires would be allowed to work, keep temp in check, and provide faster times with more grip. Aka, slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

It also certainly could be the cvt car is just better balanced left to right and manages torque output better than the test driver could with a 6mt.

 

[STL]

Thanks for all the replies from everyone! I was already starting to realize that those testing numbers really only represent one scenario that's basically "at the limit" so it is far from a full picture of the handling of a car. I was just initially really caught off guard to see the CVT seemingly best the 6MT (in handling) with the latter having a LSD, and I focused way too much on those numbers.

It appears this overly-active traction control nanny isn't unique to the Integra because I found these MotorTrend comments on the 2022 Si:
"Likely the biggest issue is the stability control, which is never fully off and won't give you full power until the steering wheel is completely straight, despite the standard limited-slip front differential."
That said you can turn it fully off with the "pedal dance" like someone else mentioned -- like if you are tracking your car.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Thanks for all the replies from everyone! I was already starting to realize that those testing numbers really only represent one scenario that's basically "at the limit" so it is far from a full picture of the handling of a car. I was just initially really caught off guard to see the CVT seemingly best the 6MT (in handling) with the latter having a LSD, and I focused way too much on those numbers.

It appears this overly-active traction control nanny isn't unique to the Integra because I found these MotorTrend comments on the 2022 Si:
"Likely the biggest issue is the stability control, which is never fully off and won't give you full power until the steering wheel is completely straight, despite the standard limited-slip front differential."
That said you can turn it fully off with the "pedal dance" like someone else mentioned -- like if you are tracking your car.

When I instruct newbies on track, about 80% of them want to immediately disable traction control. This is a pretty old mindset from when traction control systems were a lot dumber and would just cut power very aggressively and abruptly.

Most instructor training programs, safety foundations (like MSF), and driving clubs encourage the opposite now.

Most of the time, the reasoning around turning off traction control is to "fix understeer". However, that's false. Understeer occurs when the rear tires exceed the grip of the front tires, not when TCS intervenes. The first and primary fix for this is driver education. Alignment will eventually help once the driver becomes more skilled, a rear sway bar to reduce rear traction can help, upping rear tire pressure will help, adding rear spring rate (or spring isolators) will help, and so on. None of these things involve turning off traction control, because the whole goal of performance driving is tire and heat management. Rip a tire and spin it on corner exit repeatedly and within a few turns the tires will lose grip. This is especially prominent on fwd cars (because the front wheels are doing the lion's share of the work), and is exactly the reason I love sticking intermediate drivers into a mid powered hot hatch, showing them the balance struggle, and then coaching them through dropping their times by 10-20 seconds just by getting them to slow down on corner entry.

The caveat being that on most modern performance cars, the traction control uses the rear brakes to force your rotation. It's helpful to extract the last few tenths out of a lap, but will absolutely eat your brake pads. Most new drivers are not at the level of extracting tenths though, so there's more benefit to slowing down and preventing traction control from really kicking in.

 

[elh0102]

It appears this overly-active traction control nanny isn't unique to the Integra because I found these MotorTrend comments on the 2022 Si:
"Likely the biggest issue is the stability control, which is never fully off and won't give you full power until the steering wheel is completely straight, despite the standard limited-slip front differential."
That said you can turn it fully off with the "pedal dance" like someone else mentioned -- like if you are tracking your car.

Since MT is not my favorite car rag, I'll take this opportunity to question this quote, which I do not think is accurate. The TC component will engage to limit wheel spin, but I do not think that stability control will cut the throttle based on steering position, unless other handling factors have tripped the program, such as yaw rate.

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