G80 M3 to Type S what do you think?

[optronix]

The rev overhang thing is very much getting beat to death, there is the dedicated thread for that but I understand that for those who get aggravated by it, it's a really big deal. But... statistically speaking, folks who complain about it are a very small percentage of the populous. Personally it's only bothered me a handful of times early on and I'm now to the point where even if I do notice it, it's easy to dismiss.

This is a classic comparison at this point, but one thing I think most folks who've owned a modern M car can agree on is that they are very fast and capable, but just not an engaging car to drive on the street. They are the perfect example of a car basically requiring a track setting to extract any fun out of- and the new ones have even taken a step back as far as engagement in a track setting, even though their pace has probably improved significantly. The ITS reverses this trend for modern cars, and is directly on par from a fun and engagement perspective with any car I've owned recently, to include modern Porsche sports cars.

No it's not a fast car by the same standards as a G80 M3, and it lacks in a variety of luxury/creature comfort features as well. But it's one of the best driver's cars on sale today, and can truly fit the bill of a "do-it-all" sports car- at a significantly lower price point than a G80 M3.

One final note though- the Acura dealership experience is severely lacking. My last visit just this past week was acceptable for minor maintenance, but every single other visit I've had has been tragically disappointing. I never experienced the same from a BMW (or Audi, or Porsche) dealer- at worst a service advisor could be kind of a dick, but the overall capability of the techs or competence of the entire department was never in question like it is with my local Acura dealer.

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[Fred 930]

The Rev-Match on downshifting was the first thing I turned off - actually the Sales guy did it at my request while still at the Dealer doing the intro first test drive. My heel-toe technique is normally fine on track - at least after getting the pedals sorted out to my liking. But on the street and switching between different cars does make it more complicated. So might someday again play with it.
Note - I did try switching the Rev-Match feature ON as a test, but it didn't seem to make any difference with the Rev-Hang (Over Rev) issue that's at the heart of my whining.

Had a student years ago with a 370Z. He was new and learning, but remember being amazed how well he could heel & toe!! Yes, that was my first experience with a car that could rev-match on downshifting - it really worked great.

Back to the OP's question. For the most part, I like my ITS. But if buying again, I would also look harder at a BMW M2. I like its looks and the fact it's available with a manual. But it's more money, would probably experience BMW service cost horrors, and weighs 600 pounds more than the ITS - which "weighed in" on my original decision.

 

[tmperez]

The Rev-Match on downshifting was the first thing I turned off - actually the Sales guy did it at my request while still at the Dealer doing the intro first test drive. My heel-toe technique is normally fine on track - at least after getting the pedals sorted out to my liking. But on the street and switching between different cars does make it more complicated. So might someday again play with it.
Note - I did try switching the Rev-Match feature ON as a test, but it didn't seem to make any difference with the Rev-Hang (Over Rev) issue that's at the heart of my whining.

Had a student years ago with a 370Z. He was new and learning, but remember being amazed how well he could heel & toe!! Yes, that was my first experience with a car that could rev-match on downshifting - it really worked great.

Back to the OP's question. For the most part, I like my ITS. But if buying again, I would also look harder at a BMW M2. I like its looks and the fact it's available with a manual. But it's more money, would probably experience BMW service cost horrors, and weighs 600 pounds more than the ITS - which "weighed in" on my original decision.

Great feedback on the post. Thanks for taking the time to reply everyone.

I need to be honest with my driving skills. I grew up on FWD. I never really learned how to drive a RWD to its fullest. That’s why i ended up with the X drive M3. I was and still am scared of a 500hp RWD, i don’t have the time to learn how to drive the car and control that much power. I did think about a manual M2 but yeah the whole RWD only is not for me. Just being honest.

 

[elh0102]

Great feedback on the post. Thanks for taking the time to reply everyone.

I need to be honest with my driving skills. I grew up on FWD. I never really learned how to drive a RWD to its fullest. That’s why i ended up with the X drive M3. I was and still am scared of a 500hp RWD, i don’t have the time to learn how to drive the car and control that much power. I did think about a manual M2 but yeah the whole RWD only is not for me. Just being honest.

Nothing wrong with a little honesty. If you ever reconsider a high hp RWD, I'll just offer a comment. Being a little afraid of it is the first step in learning to drive it. Obviously, no need to do it, unless you just value the whole driving experience and want to learn. I've seen more than a few fearless drivers put their expensive car in the wall, all because they didn't know what they didn't know.

 

[STi from DSM]

I have had many higher end cars. RS3, RS5, M5, M850i. Never had an M3 but have had comparable models.
What you said is pretty accurate. My last car (M850i) was a heavy brute GT car for sure. The Type S is a nimble dart compared to that.
Is the Type S faster? No. I bought it because it is engaging to drive. A manual makes you think, makes you work for it. An automatic these days basically drives itself.

Will you miss the M3? I am sure you would miss aspects about it but the Type S is actually really fun to drive.

I have thought about doing an M3 for my next vehicle but I swap cars every 10 months or so. Too often in my opinion. The Type S has the tenacity to stick around for more than 10 months.

 

[TheRas900]

The manual BMWs (M2, M3, Z4) are very good. I think you would like your M3 more if you had gone with the base 6MT version. Any thought on getting one of those?

The Integras are really fun cars, probably more fun than the BMWs save the Z4. You will have a significant decrease in overall luxury and material quality.

I don't think you can go wrong with either - both are great vehicles. Good luck with your decision!

 

[s219]

I need to be honest with my driving skills. I grew up on FWD. I never really learned how to drive a RWD to its fullest. That’s why i ended up with the X drive M3. I was and still am scared of a 500hp RWD, i don’t have the time to learn how to drive the car and control that much power. I did think about a manual M2 but yeah the whole RWD only is not for me. Just being honest.

The RWD M cars have a reputation for being a handful, but I am convinced that is more because of people being idiots leaving cars and coffee events. I've had my 2020 M2 Comp (F87) for 6 years now, RWD 6MT and much more power than what BMW specs on paper -- they rate it at 405HP engine power, but people consistently measure more than that at the rear wheels on a dyno, so it's probably more like 480HP at the engine. I've never had that car step out on me unintentionally or become dangerous in spirited driving on public roads with the nannies turned on. It will respond very predictably to intentional efforts to snap sideways and drift through a turn if you want (enable M drivers mode, aka "MDM"), but who has the $tire budget to do that regularly. I'd say it's a very approachable car and not anything to be afraid of. The G87 is even more refined and better behaved, albeit with less driver engagement.

 

[s219]

I'm a vocal critic (on other threads) of the ITS nasty "Over-Rev" (some call it rev-hang, but it's worse than that) problem. I used to do a fair amount of track driving, most recently with a low HP but great handling VW Scirocco race car (full cage, lightweight, no interior, fire system, belts, seat, etc.).
Have not tracked my ITS, but even spirited street driving suffers when making high RPM up-shifts. Rather than allowing revs to drop (perhaps) 500 RPM like it should on upshifts, the ECU actually applies throttle to increase revs, perhaps 1000 RPM. So even modestly fast gear up-changes results in a rough clutch / driveline "lurch", since the engine is about 1500 RPM higher than it should be for the next higher gear.

I find the over-rev behavior annoying but can't say I notice any ill effects even when going into the next gear. It really only happens to me when merging on the highway, which is one of the rare places I can afford to open up my cars and stay somewhat legal. Interestingly, I recently traded my ITS for a CTR, and of course it does the same damn thing since they are more or less the same car and powertrain with only minor differences in the engine tune and suspension calibration. I have noticed some of the dynamics and behaviors of the CTR are better though. Clutch engagement is much more direct, with none of the lag I had on the ITS (which I attributed to the clutch delay valve, but ???). That in turn makes the rev matched downshifts crisper. And the engine sounds better, with none of the drones/warbles/wheezes the ITS made when on and off throttle. I also feel like the CTR suspension calibration is more inline with my tastes. A lot of people complain it's too stiff in comparison to the ITS, and I was expecting to spend more time in comfort mode, but sport mode in the CTR is just about perfect to me. It's just on the tolerable side of stiff and never harsh.

Put everything together and my initial reaction (which I always trust when comparing cars back to back) was that the CTR has better overall balance than the ITS. I was not expecting that much of a difference between the two cars given all the similarities and many identical parts. Bonus is that the build quality is noticeably better on the CTR. I still have the same exact buzz coming from the seatbelt height adjuster on the B-pillar, but the widespread rattles, fit/finish problems, and paint quality issues I had on the ITS are absent on the CTR.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I find the over-rev behavior annoying but can't say I notice any ill effects even when going into the next gear. It really only happens to me when merging on the highway, which is one of the rare places I can afford to open up my cars and stay somewhat legal. Interestingly, I recently traded my ITS for a CTR, and of course it does the same damn thing since they are more or less the same car and powertrain with only minor differences in the engine tune and suspension calibration. I have noticed some of the dynamics and behaviors of the CTR are better though. Clutch engagement is much more direct, with none of the lag I had on the ITS (which I attributed to the clutch delay valve, but ???). That in turn makes the rev matched downshifts crisper. And the engine sounds better, with none of the drones/warbles/wheezes the ITS made when on and off throttle. I also feel like the CTR suspension calibration is more inline with my tastes. A lot of people complain it's too stiff in comparison to the ITS, and I was expecting to spend more time in comfort mode, but sport mode in the CTR is just about perfect to me. It's just on the tolerable side of stiff and never harsh.

Put everything together and my initial reaction (which I always trust when comparing cars back to back) was that the CTR has better overall balance than the ITS. I was not expecting that much of a difference between the two cars given all the similarities and many identical parts. Bonus is that the build quality is noticeably better on the CTR. I still have the same exact buzz coming from the seatbelt height adjuster on the B-pillar, but the widespread rattles, fit/finish problems, and paint quality issues I had on the ITS are absent on the CTR.

I would LOVE to spend a day detailing a ctr just to get to know it.

Did you have any holograms? How's the orange peel?

My its was embarrassing from the dealer lot. The paint looked very aged, as did many parts of the car. The orange peel was so bad to begin with that it was the first bee car I've owned that I considered wet sanding. If it wasn't for the ppf on it eight now, I would probably wet sand and add a couple coats of clear.

 

[optronix]

Great feedback on the post. Thanks for taking the time to reply everyone.

I need to be honest with my driving skills. I grew up on FWD. I never really learned how to drive a RWD to its fullest. That’s why i ended up with the X drive M3. I was and still am scared of a 500hp RWD, i don’t have the time to learn how to drive the car and control that much power. I did think about a manual M2 but yeah the whole RWD only is not for me. Just being honest.

This reminds me, I STRONGLY recommend heading to South Carolina and getting some seat time at the BMW Performance Center. I had the immense pleasure of doing my local BMWCCA's "M Performance Day" where I spent a full day out there behind the wheel of the latest M cars. This was in 2016 mind you, but OMFG what an experience.

I grew up driving RWD cars (I veered Nissan during my "import craze" in the late 90s/early 00s...), but still, until you're intentionally rotating an M3 sideways around a figure 8, you're not living. If you can walk away from that event still feeling like RWD is not for you, then you'll definitely know your answer- but at least you'll have a shitload of fun (and learn a few things about driving at the limit) while you're at it.

Yes it's expensive but so is this hobby in general. Anyone who likes driving will find it WELL worth the expense.

https://bmwperformancecenter.com/

 

[s219]

I would LOVE to spend a day detailing a ctr just to get to know it.

Did you have any holograms? How's the orange peel?

My its was embarrassing from the dealer lot. The paint looked very aged, as did many parts of the car. The orange peel was so bad to begin with that it was the first bee car I've owned that I considered wet sanding. If it wasn't for the ppf on it eight now, I would probably wet sand and add a couple coats of clear.

No holograms on the CTR that I could see, although the color is Championship White which hides stuff like that to the naked eye. Orange peel is noticeable but it's consistent, unlike my ITS where it was different all over the car and even had finer orange peel inside coarser orange peel.

The worst issue on the CTR was loads of rail dust, likely from the trip across the US to get to the east coast. Worst I have ever seen, in fact I went through two bottles of iron remover, and that's with gentle agitation after each dwell. I caught more iron in a clay mitt during the final wash. There are likely still some iron particles on the car but I ran out of patience so they are now part of the charm/patina. There were a few small dull spots in the clearcoat (probably from bird droppings) but those polished out. Honda of Japan doesn't put any paint protection on the new cars for shipping, which is unfortunate. They should have at least put some of that white plastic sheet on the horizontal surfaces. I remember back in the old days, they would spray the entire car with a waxy cosmolene type of coating before it left Japan, and that did a great job protecting the paint.

So yeah, wash, iron decon, wash, clay mitt wash, and then hybrid ceramic spray and it came out nice enough for me, bearing in mind it's just a Civic at the end of the day.

I had to work much harder on the ITS -- it was filthy when it got to my dealer and looked like it had sat in a dusty lot for weeks getting rained on. During the initial wash, the water in my rinse bucket was black. Lots of etching and water spots left on the clear. I did a round of Klasse AIO which has solvents and a very light polish, and that helped immensely. Most of the serious defects (nibs and clear coat solvent pops) were not fully fixable without getting more serious and wet sanding, so I left them alone. Fortunately, it looked good from 5 feet away so I just let it go and enjoyed the car.

 

[ckone2030]

I currently own both cars and love both for very different reasons. I use my G80 M3 Comp for my daily driver because it is so comfortable, has great tech, better sound system (in my opinion), and of course very fast. It makes crazy ATL traffics somewhat tolerable . But when I go to the twisty roads, I prefer taking the Type S because it is so much more engaging and just plain fun.

 

[tmperez]

This reminds me, I STRONGLY recommend heading to South Carolina and getting some seat time at the BMW Performance Center. I had the immense pleasure of doing my local BMWCCA's "M Performance Day" where I spent a full day out there behind the wheel of the latest M cars. This was in 2016 mind you, but OMFG what an experience.

I grew up driving RWD cars (I veered Nissan during my "import craze" in the late 90s/early 00s...), but still, until you're intentionally rotating an M3 sideways around a figure 8, you're not living. If you can walk away from that event still feeling like RWD is not for you, then you'll definitely know your answer- but at least you'll have a shitload of fun (and learn a few things about driving at the limit) while you're at it.

Yes it's expensive but so is this hobby in general. Anyone who likes driving will find it WELL worth the expense.

https://bmwperformancecenter.com/

The BMW performance center gets noting but amazing reviews. People come out of there with changed DNA!

I think the learning is part my issue. Right now i don’t have the time to dedicate to learning how to drive the car. between work and family no chance im going to SC, if i was local it would be a not be a question.

I’m about 60/40 that I’m going to make the change I’m not there yet but getting there. The M3 is an amazing car. We have established that the M3 needs to be on a track to be truly run at its peak and for a daily driver in traffic it’s great but for me it’s not even that car. I have 3 kids and 95% of the time we are using our Wagoneer. I have never had all 3 kids in the M3 at one time and for any around town trips with the family i never use the car. M3s are also depreciating quickly, i think i can get out of it at a great price right now because it only has 6k miles and basically all the options.

Maybe in a few years i can go back to an M car. But for my life i think the ITR is a better fit for right now.

This thread has helped me understand what I’m getting into with a type s and what to expect. In a lot of ways it lowered my expectation regarding build quality, paint etc… but did reinforce my expectation about driving experience. Having a 4 door modern manual with some pep and that is fun to drive and probably 1/2 the cost to own seems like the right path for me.

 

[ckone2030]

My M3 purchase included one day at the M School and it was amazing. Highly recommend it! You get to drive an M2, M3/M4 and an M5 by yourself with the instructor on the walkie talkie. There is also the two-day session that will include driving on the full track. I think the one day session is plenty enough for me.

 

[Fred 930]

...... I have 3 kids and 95% of the time we are using our Wagoneer. I have never had all 3 kids in the M3 at one time and for any around town trips with the family i never use the car.

Maybe in a few years i can go back to an M car. But for my life i think the ITR is a better fit for right now.

Just one thing that can be missed - unlike the regular Integra, the Type S has only 2 back seats. No center seat or belts for a 5th passenger.

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