Back on Track

[optronix]

Good stuff. Since I don't track as often I'm not sure when or if I'll ever get to replacing the oil pan, but good to know that this pretty much validates my theory that aftermarket intercoolers solve a problem that doesn't exist on these cars.

Also not shocked to hear the feedback on the Nankangs. I'm debating tire choices right now because I just placed an order for Bridgestone RE-71RZ in 275/35-18, but they're on backorder and no ETA. Tire Rack tells me could be up to 3 months, apparently that's a very popular size. I was going to order a set in December but skipped it because at the time it said lead time was only 2 weeks. I severely underrated that step and now I'm kicking myself.

I could theoretically still get a set of RE-71RS in 265 but the price is virtually the same and since they only have literally 4 left in the country they're all in separate warehouses I have no option of pre-heat cycling which I like. I passed on them. So I'm looking at options if I end up getting impatient because I have this set of Volk CE28Ns in the box and I can't wait to see them on the car... right now I'm leaning towards Yokohama A052 but also looking at other options. The Nankangs were on the list, but I talked myself out of them last year in 19" sizes over the Falken RT660+. I won't buy Falkens again because they were absolutely terrible in wet or cold (~50 degrees F) conditions. The Kumho V730 are enticing too at 2/3 the price. My primary (almost exclusive) use case for the 200TW tires is autocross, as I'm keeping my Apex's and slapping a set of PS4S back on them.

But overall, these tires are too damn expensive to mess around. I'm still thinking I just wait around for Bridgestone to get off their asses and ship me a set of RZs.

Overall though your thoughts on 265 vs 275- I think I recall you saying 265 is preferable? You still stand by that? Or does the calculus change with 18s?

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[StingertimeNC]

Just throwing in some data from VIR last week. ran my personal best, 2:15 on full course. The Kuhmo V730's are great. Especially for the money. As a point of comparison, Ben, from Gears and Gasoline took Ben from Point By Patrol's care around full course and broke 2:08 last year. That's the fastest a FL5 has been around the "Full Course." Another interesting point, Ben from Point By Patrol ran his car to a 3:01 on Grand course. "Basically 3 seconds shy of the Car and Driver lightning lap, on a stock FL5, with Sport Cup 2's.) Point By Patrol's car is heavily modified though, and he's running slicks.

My Type S has a TSP downpipe, Takeda intake, and is running a custom stage 2 tune from Jestertuned. Put 3 gallons of 100 octane in at the start of each day, then just topped up on 93 octane between sessions.

I datalogged an entire session, and my coolant temps never exceeded 214F, No knock, no oil pressure issues other than very slight drop on really low speed tight turns, etc.

One of my friend's FL5 was high 230f on coolant temps, but he's running the original PRL intercooler. Running same lap times as me. I told him to put the stock intercooler back on. Ha ha.

Also, I'm on Eibach pro kit and rear sway, but no camber adjustment so basically -1.9 up front and - 2.1 or so in the rear.

Just saying, our cars are pretty damn good on track. I definitely get lots of questions about the car.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Good stuff. Since I don't track as often I'm not sure when or if I'll ever get to replacing the oil pan, but good to know that this pretty much validates my theory that aftermarket intercoolers solve a problem that doesn't exist on these cars.

Also not shocked to hear the feedback on the Nankangs. I'm debating tire choices right now because I just placed an order for Bridgestone RE-71RZ in 275/35-18, but they're on backorder and no ETA. Tire Rack tells me could be up to 3 months, apparently that's a very popular size. I was going to order a set in December but skipped it because at the time it said lead time was only 2 weeks. I severely underrated that step and now I'm kicking myself.

I could theoretically still get a set of RE-71RS in 265 but the price is virtually the same and since they only have literally 4 left in the country they're all in separate warehouses I have no option of pre-heat cycling which I like. I passed on them. So I'm looking at options if I end up getting impatient because I have this set of Volk CE28Ns in the box and I can't wait to see them on the car... right now I'm leaning towards Yokohama A052 but also looking at other options. The Nankangs were on the list, but I talked myself out of them last year in 19" sizes over the Falken RT660+. I won't buy Falkens again because they were absolutely terrible in wet or cold (~50 degrees F) conditions. The Kumho V730 are enticing too at 2/3 the price. My primary (almost exclusive) use case for the 200TW tires is autocross, as I'm keeping my Apex's and slapping a set of PS4S back on them.

But overall, these tires are too damn expensive to mess around. I'm still thinking I just wait around for Bridgestone to get off their asses and ship me a set of RZs.

Overall though your thoughts on 265 vs 275- I think I recall you saying 265 is preferable? You still stand by that? Or does the calculus change with 18s?

The yoko lasted me 12 sessions total. They're a fast tire for autox, but a very poor choice for track use. The crs are just more heat tolerant, but they still have a fall off 3 laps in that's fairly dramatic. I won't run them again probably.

I think the rz will probably be similar to the crs with maybe a smidge more peak grip. They're apparently just a smidge above the rs, and really just a smidge. Nothing earth shattering unless you're really chasing a tenth.

For the weight and oem power, I still think a 265 is a strong choice. The 275/35 will just run a tad cooler and have taller gearing, which helps with tuned torque. A 285/30 i believe gives too short gearing and 295 is probably too wide and impact scrub radius because of the wheel width you'd need to go to. I do think a 275 is a good compromise and I'd like to see it on a 10" or 10.5" rim that brings the wheel slightly more in board (there's room). So like an 18x10.5 et 52 or 54.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Just throwing in some data from VIR last week. ran my personal best, 2:15 on full course. The Kuhmo V730's are great. Especially for the money. As a point of comparison, Ben, from Gears and Gasoline took Ben from Point By Patrol's care around full course and broke 2:08 last year. That's the fastest a FL5 has been around the "Full Course." Another interesting point, Ben from Point By Patrol ran his car to a 3:01 on Grand course. "Basically 3 seconds shy of the Car and Driver lightning lap, on a stock FL5, with Sport Cup 2's.) Point By Patrol's car is heavily modified though, and he's running slicks.

My Type S has a TSP downpipe, Takeda intake, and is running a custom stage 2 tune from Jestertuned. Put 3 gallons of 100 octane in at the start of each day, then just topped up on 93 octane between sessions.

I datalogged an entire session, and my coolant temps never exceeded 214F, No knock, no oil pressure issues other than very slight drop on really low speed tight turns, etc.

One of my friend's FL5 was high 230f on coolant temps, but he's running the original PRL intercooler. Running same lap times as me. I told him to put the stock intercooler back on. Ha ha.

Also, I'm on Eibach pro kit and rear sway, but no camber adjustment so basically -1.9 up front and - 2.1 or so in the rear.

Just saying, our cars are pretty damn good on track. I definitely get lots of questions about the car.

The modified vs stock car lap times are always fun to compare.

First time I ever had a real pro drive one of my cars, it was eye opening. That was when I decided I'm going to stop chasing lap times and start chasing consistency and seat time. The lap times quickly started falling once I became more consistent and they started falling even faster when I learned that weight and heat management trumps all.

These cars are mega capable! We'll see how it does when it's crazy hot out, but so far it's a consistent car. Way more consistent that my gti.

 

[UWU-mancer]

Just throwing in some data from VIR last week. ran my personal best, 2:15 on full course. The Kuhmo V730's are great. Especially for the money. As a point of comparison, Ben, from Gears and Gasoline took Ben from Point By Patrol's care around full course and broke 2:08 last year. That's the fastest a FL5 has been around the "Full Course." Another interesting point, Ben from Point By Patrol ran his car to a 3:01 on Grand course. "Basically 3 seconds shy of the Car and Driver lightning lap, on a stock FL5, with Sport Cup 2's.) Point By Patrol's car is heavily modified though, and he's running slicks.

My Type S has a TSP downpipe, Takeda intake, and is running a custom stage 2 tune from Jestertuned. Put 3 gallons of 100 octane in at the start of each day, then just topped up on 93 octane between sessions.

I datalogged an entire session, and my coolant temps never exceeded 214F, No knock, no oil pressure issues other than very slight drop on really low speed tight turns, etc.

One of my friend's FL5 was high 230f on coolant temps, but he's running the original PRL intercooler. Running same lap times as me. I told him to put the stock intercooler back on. Ha ha.

Also, I'm on Eibach pro kit and rear sway, but no camber adjustment so basically -1.9 up front and - 2.1 or so in the rear.

Just saying, our cars are pretty damn good on track. I definitely get lots of questions about the car.

Grats on PB bro

racing yourself is the most rewarding. Unless it’s one of those bitch ass mf’s that don’t let U pass cuz they suck dick…. Mf’s….

 

[UWU-mancer]

The modified vs stock car lap times are always fun to compare.

First time I ever had a real pro drive one of my cars, it was eye opening. That was when I decided I'm going to stop chasing lap times and start chasing consistency and seat time. The lap times quickly started falling once I became more consistent and they started falling even faster when I learned that weight and heat management trumps all.

These cars are mega capable! We'll see how it does when it's crazy hot out, but so far it's a consistent car. Way more consistent that my gti.

Same. GTI had stage 1 high tq, dsg tune, 4s’s, intercooler and other bolt ons

Mf ran damn near 6 seconds faster. He was one of the instructors. I was hating so hard. But watching him, learned a good bit. And when I’d pay attention to the feeling of the car while he pushed. I learned even more. Picked up 2 seconds real quick thanks to him

 

[optronix]

The yoko lasted me 12 sessions total. They're a fast tire for autox, but a very poor choice for track use. The crs are just more heat tolerant, but they still have a fall off 3 laps in that's fairly dramatic. I won't run them again probably.

I think the rz will probably be similar to the crs with maybe a smidge more peak grip. They're apparently just a smidge above the rs, and really just a smidge. Nothing earth shattering unless you're really chasing a tenth.

For the weight and oem power, I still think a 265 is a strong choice. The 275/35 will just run a tad cooler and have taller gearing, which helps with tuned torque. A 285/30 i believe gives too short gearing and 295 is probably too wide and impact scrub radius because of the wheel width you'd need to go to. I do think a 275 is a good compromise and I'd like to see it on a 10" or 10.5" rim that brings the wheel slightly more in board (there's room). So like an 18x10.5 et 52 or 54.

The biggest appeal to me for Bridgestones is wet grip. I can't pick what days the events land on, and I ended up racing in the rain at least 3 times last year, and the last event was chilly AF. I only ran with the Falkens one time in the rain, and they were brand new too (heat cycled) but that day was more frustration than fun. Same with the cold. It felt downright dangerous until my 6th run- fortunately they gave us 9 that day but still. It more or less sucked- but the guys with the Bridgestones didn't seem to be bothered.

As for RZ vs the RS, they are just not available any longer. Tire Rack put them on "clearance"- which for my sizes was like a net $11 discount... but it's not about lap times, it's just about availability. Plus I've heard some pretty compelling testimonials that the tire is more than a smidge better than the outgoing model. But I'm sure the reality is closer to your assessment. I'm not expecting the world.

Also just checked, Kumhos are out of stock too but I'll wager there's much less lead time with them vs the brand new RZs.

Also the wheels they'd be going on are 18x10 +40.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

The biggest appeal to me for Bridgestones is wet grip. I can't pick what days the events land on, and I ended up racing in the rain at least 3 times last year, and the last event was chilly AF. I only ran with the Falkens one time in the rain, and they were brand new too (heat cycled) but that day was more frustration than fun. Same with the cold. It felt downright dangerous until my 6th run- fortunately they gave us 9 that day but still. It more or less sucked- but the guys with the Bridgestones didn't seem to be bothered.

As for RZ vs the RS, they are just not available any longer. Tire Rack put them on "clearance"- which for my sizes was like a net $11 discount... but it's not about lap times, it's just about availability. Plus I've heard some pretty compelling testimonials that the tire is more than a smidge better than the outgoing model. But I'm sure the reality is closer to your assessment. I'm not expecting the world.

Also just checked, Kumhos are out of stock too but I'll wager there's much less lead time with them vs the brand new RZs.

Also the wheels they'd be going on are 18x10 +40.

What about the rivals or tempesta?

 

[optronix]

What about the rivals or tempesta?

Both of these make sense honestly.

I'll wait a couple weeks to see if I get a surprise notification that the RE-71RZ have shipped. If not, I'll order one of these (pref. Tempesta P-01R) that are in stock.

On second thought (and a bit of research), the V730 doesn't work for me. Tempting but my whole reason I don't like the Falkens is because they suck when it's chilly or wet out. The V730 is a great HPDE tire, but that's not my major focus.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Both of these make sense honestly.

I'll wait a couple weeks to see if I get a surprise notification that the RE-71RZ have shipped. If not, I'll order one of these (pref. Tempesta P-01R) that are in stock.

On second thought (and a bit of research), the V730 doesn't work for me. Tempting but my whole reason I don't like the Falkens is because they suck when it's chilly or wet out. The V730 is a great HPDE tire, but that's not my major focus.

Why not ps4s in the wet? One of the things they're known for is very good wet lap times. Usually better than the super 200s.

 

[optronix]

Why not ps4s in the wet? One of the things they're known for is very good wet lap times. Usually better than the super 200s.

This is an option, as I'm having PS4S mounted to my Apex's- at the shop as I type this actually. But I guarantee that if there's a chance of rain I'm not going to wake up at 4am to go swap wheels in my driveway. In the rain.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

This is an option, as I'm having PS4S mounted to my Apex's- at the shop as I type this actually. But I guarantee that if there's a chance of rain I'm not going to wake up at 4am to go swap wheels in my driveway. In the rain.

Then plan to park it in the garage lol.

Real talk - run heat in the wet followed by a damp, humid, and hot work heat being eaten by mosquitoes (all while dealing with a bunch of reruns) is a big part of why I don't autox anymore .

That and I did the per minute cost math of autox vs HPDE, lol.

 

[optronix]

Then plan to park it in the garage lol.

Real talk - run heat in the wet followed by a damp, humid, and hot work heat being eaten by mosquitoes (all while dealing with a bunch of reruns) is a big part of why I don't autox anymore .

That and I did the per minute cost math of autox vs HPDE, lol.

I don't doubt the per-minute calculations... but I have to ask- was track insurance part of that equation?

I love HPDE, I really do. But between the insurance cost (brings the risk tolerance to an acceptable level) and accessibility of there being an event relatively local to me pretty much every weekend, autocross still wins out for me. Plus, I've noticed my endurance for driving wears off after no more than 4 hours. I've ended up leaving events at the half day mark pretty regularly. I do find the course work for autocross part a bit of an annoyance, but honestly it's easier on me than actual driving if you can believe it.

Also I'd classify reruns in autocross a few notches lower on the annoyance board than getting stuck behind some douche that refuses to let you pass. That shit is anxiety-inducing, if not sheer rage bait.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I don't doubt the per-minute calculations... but I have to ask- was track insurance part of that equation?

I love HPDE, I really do. But between the insurance cost (brings the risk tolerance to an acceptable level) and accessibility of there being an event relatively local to me pretty much every weekend, autocross still wins out for me. Plus, I've noticed my endurance for driving wears off after no more than 4 hours. I've ended up leaving events at the half day mark pretty regularly. I do find the course work for autocross part a bit of an annoyance, but honestly it's easier on me than actual driving if you can believe it.

Also I'd classify reruns in autocross a few notches lower on the annoyance board than getting stuck behind some douche that refuses to let you pass. That shit is anxiety-inducing, if not sheer rage bait.

I hear you on getting stuck. Thankfully in most of the groups I've driven with there's no major ego problems and people will let you by. There were some issues in the earlier groups where people were still learning to use their mirrors, but that's fairly normal.

I did not take track insurance into account, but I did take "competitive" tires into account. The entry cost for autox is just really low and that's what makes it appealing. It's also fairly low risk, but I've seen some poor timing related incidents that shouldn't have occurred. Still low risk. Even with track insurance at 500/weekend, the cost is 3X+ in favor of DE. a year of insurance, events, tires, brakes, etc will run you 10k on an its (6k in a miata). Autox would be more like 2k (not counting brakes for it because of fairly low wear, but counting for de).

Where the calculations starts to differ is at the minute to minute level. In DE you're doing typically 80 mins each day (160 total). Autox is roughly 4-6 mins per event, maybe more if you have a smaller region. Even if it was 10 mins, it would take 8 events to sum up to the same seat time as half a weekend in DE. You do get more turns in autox so it's a more compact form of car balance/focus with a much more concentrated level of action. It can also make learning more difficult because the rapid pace gives so much input in a short time period, it's harder to digest.

At the end of the day, I think both formats have a place. I don't discourage anyone from autox. I just personally like the pace and seat time that de/tt/instructing offer.

 

[optronix]

I hear you on getting stuck. Thankfully in most of the groups I've driven with there's no major ego problems and people will let you by. There were some issues in the earlier groups where people were still learning to use their mirrors, but that's fairly normal.

I did not take track insurance into account, but I did take "competitive" tires into account. The entry cost for autox is just really low and that's what makes it appealing. It's also fairly low risk, but I've seen some poor timing related incidents that shouldn't have occurred. Still low risk. Even with track insurance at 500/weekend, the cost is 3X+ in favor of DE. a year of insurance, events, tires, brakes, etc will run you 10k on an its (6k in a miata). Autox would be more like 2k (not counting brakes for it because of fairly low wear, but counting for de).

Where the calculations starts to differ is at the minute to minute level. In DE you're doing typically 80 mins each day (160 total). Autox is roughly 4-6 mins per event, maybe more if you have a smaller region. Even if it was 10 mins, it would take 8 events to sum up to the same seat time as half a weekend in DE. You do get more turns in autox so it's a more compact form of car balance/focus with a much more concentrated level of action. It can also make learning more difficult because the rapid pace gives so much input in a short time period, it's harder to digest.

At the end of the day, I think both formats have a place. I don't discourage anyone from autox. I just personally like the pace and seat time that de/tt/instructing offer.

I get it, and agree on all fronts. It does get down to preference. But I promised myself I'd do at least one DE last year and didn't follow through... so this year I guess I have to do 2 to make up for it .

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