Auto Rev Match Interfering with Upshifts

[mattaleo]

What did wonders in my 05 Accord 6-6 and in my S2000 was to use GM Synchromesh Friction modified tranny fluid.

Never had major grinding in those cars, but sometimes the shifting was feeling a bit notchy and grindy. GM stuff helped.

Used the GM fluid for more than 10+ years in the S2K and for 18 years in the Accord.

My ITS seems smoother than those two cars regarding shifting. But it seems to get a little bit worst as I drive the car (I am at 4500 km now). Don't know if I'll go the GM route with this car or not. For now, it is acceptable.

Thanks Frenzal, I'll look into this fluid if the dealer gives me the runaround.

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[edido]

Damn, seems like the dealer is repeating what Honda has told the Type-R customers.
Yeah it is really frustrating, I've driven Hondas with clutches since early teens including 2-stroke dirt bikes and shifter carts. Never had grind issues on those and they Rev high, you could beat those transmissions to hell and they wouldn't bat an eye. Strange they haven't mastered the 1-2 shift in these transmissions.
Thanks for the response. I'll see if the dealer has the same response for me.

Since it’s the same transmission as Type R I would be surprised if Acura would do anything differently. That’s unfortunate.

 

[crepr12]

It was turned off prior to leaving the dealers lot.........

 

[Azkyrie6]

Has anyone experienced the 1st to second grind issue? I've heard this was a big complaint with the Type-R...but it didn't happen with my Type-S until I started to push it a little after the break in period.
To describe the experience, when shifting normally from 1st to second the transition is smooth and flawless. But- when going from a dig, switching fast from 1st to second at high rpm 2/5 times the car will grind pretty harshly into second.
It's pretty concerning as I'm now afraid to push it too hard from 1st to second, and takes away the confidence in what I thought was an amazing transmission.
Any thoughts on how I should approach this? Is it something Acura will look at under warranty? I really don't want a random tech trying to repeat the issue.. but will do what's necessary if this can be fixed.

The transmission is amazing but you'll have to learn how the car wants to shift instead of shifting it the way you're used to shifting. From what you described you're trying to achieve maximum acceleration. You'd be running the gears up to/near redline then jamming into the next gear and accept jerky shifts. Older MT cars this wears on all drive line components. Typically when wanting a smooth shift, driver has to wait for revs to fall. Honda designed around this with Rev-hang during hard acceleration:

This is supposed to be more helpful to newbie drivers or those who shift slow but it is supposed to be active upshifting through 3rd, 4th and 5th gears.

The other thing to note is that Sport+/R+ mode in the dynamics system almost requires the driver to have direct and immediate shifting from the auto-blipping. Sport and Comfort modes has different blipping response for less shift shocking.

The clutch engagement point on the ITS is quite high, but if you're wanting to disable the Rev matching there are three ways: 1. Disable it in headunit. 2. not fully depressing clutch pedal 3. Fully depress clutch pedal for about a second.

No matter the driving mode or situation, we still need to release the clutch in a nice, smooth and fluid motion. Clutch does feel soft in this vehicle but we still need to be methodical and intentional. Normally if we want smooth shifting, we have to wait for revs to fall but that makes us slow; Rev-Match system sort of alleviates this in the higher gears. So we have to change how we drive 1st->2nd.

During this shift it's not doing what you expect it to do if accustomed to traditional MT's. Trying to shift quickly the revs on honda/acura do not drop enough for a smooth shift and you will have jerks with revs too high. For daily driving, I don't rev up that high from 1st->2nd; I quick shift to 2nd then let the car build speed for 2nd through 6th gears. You must shift earlier in the rev range or shift slower than you're used to.

For more spirited driving you can rev higher than 3k RPM for smoother shifting.

The other part is ECU induced closing throttle slowly for emissions. You can either use a tune to remove it completely or remove clutch delay valve.

In the end Timing is the most important skill to make rev-matching system work or in the case of new drivers, timing is needed without any rev-matching/rev-hang. Takes a little practice but I no longer have issues with jerkiness; that said I still plan to delete clutch delay valve.

 

[SlippyFist]

Has anyone experienced the 1st to second grind issue? I've heard this was a big complaint with the Type-R...but it didn't happen with my Type-S until I started to push it a little after the break in period.
To describe the experience, when shifting normally from 1st to second the transition is smooth and flawless. But- when going from a dig, switching fast from 1st to second at high rpm 2/5 times the car will grind pretty harshly into second.
It's pretty concerning as I'm now afraid to push it too hard from 1st to second, and takes away the confidence in what I thought was an amazing transmission.
Any thoughts on how I should approach this? Is it something Acura will look at under warranty? I really don't want a random tech trying to repeat the issue.. but will do what's necessary if this can be fixed.

OH FUCKING GOD NOT THIS AGAIN

i have (until they come pick it up for trade-in) a '15 Civic Si that has this, and apparently the culprit is a Clutch Delay Valve. It only happens when you're shifting real hard/fast from 1st to 2nd, but it's pretty annoying because it forces you to shift it gentler to avoid it. but yeah, coming from the 9th gen civic forums, CDV delete was a big topic there when those cars were new

 

[CTR]

Very few people with an FL5 have reported issues with grinding gears. It makes me think it’s a driver issue. I encourage you to research the best techniques for shifting into each gear. I had to relearn how to drive manual with my AP1 S2000 and have yet to have any issues with my FL5.

 

[SeanIsElsewhere]

Have you experienced occasional clunky feeling going from 2nd to (specifically in the shifter like hitting a wall or something/slight kickback before it goes in) 3rd at all; particularly when short shifting? Also any grind/grittiness when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd with your auto-rev-match enabled?

not sure if I need a clutch adjustment or something wrong with the shifter itself but have been thinking maybe auto-rev-match may have something to do with it too.

 

[elh0102]

I have found no interaction at all between rev matching and up shifting. Coming from a history of high hp, normally aspirated rear drive cars with ECU-free mechanical transmissions, the ITS is certainly a change. The combination of the throttle mapping, torque steer, and turbo lag makes up shifting very different. But these are all things to which a good driver adapts. These are nice little cars that are fun to drive, but you can't make them something they are not.

 

[boosted_canoe]

I don’t love ringing out 1st gear at a slow pace - but definitely the sweet spot is between 3.5 and 4.5k for 1 -> 2.

I’ve felt the same thing with sport mode. Maybe the revs drop differently.

My biggest takeaway from this thread is that the rev hang behaves differently based on temperature, whether a/c or heat is on, and whether Rev match is on.

Personally, I think such an erratic power train is unacceptable on a $38,000 car. There’s a lot of noise right now from auto journalists and social media influencers bought out by Honda… but ultimately I think these cars will not hold their value well. If you’re a perspective buyer lurking on this thread, I highly recommend buying anything else. For driver engagement, this might be the worst civic si power train of all time.

But to each their own.

it's been my favorite manual car I've ever owned. Seems to get smoother as you put more miles on it. or maybe i just got the hang of it. I think the A/C compressor was really tight when new and took 20k miles to really loosen up and stop messing with my shifts. would get this weird clunk when engaging the clutch which i think was the A/C clutch clanking around. finally has disappeared after i put a ton of miles on it.

 

[boosted_canoe]

I have found no interaction at all between rev matching and up shifting. Coming from a history of high hp, normally aspirated rear drive cars with ECU-free mechanical transmissions, the ITS is certainly a change. The combination of the throttle mapping, torque steer, and turbo lag makes up shifting very different. But these are all things to which a good driver adapts. These are nice little cars that are fun to drive, but you can't make them something they are not.

you won't notice it if you have experience driving manual. you'd have to be shifting SUPER slow to notice the rev match on up shifts.

 

[elh0102]

you won't notice it if you have experience driving manual. you'd have to be shifting SUPER slow to notice the rev match on up shifts.

I'll gladly take your word for it, but I don't understand how the software for rev matching would have such an effect. But the throttle mapping for rev overhang could do it, which has long been an emissions control tool. But I haven't found it problematic in this car.

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