Where to start with Performance Upgrades?

[lumper]

Hey guys, I been lurking on the forum for past 3 months, really enjoy all the post..

I picked up my ITS in July, and the only thing I done was put the PRL HVI on..
Like the extra turbo noises lol

Anyhow , I’m trying to figure out what I should do next..

Im bit of a noob at this stuff, but can manage to do my own work..

Main question is what would be the best thing to do with this car to get best bang for performance on the street..Won’t be no track days, we don’t have that option up here..

Should I just get a tune?
Recommendations?

im seeing a lot of talk about a down pipe, anyone care to explain the benefit of a down pipe?

Anyhow, appreciate anyone’s help!!

thanks

I would not do anything else until you tune it even if you jailbreak the ecu and have a hondata or phearable tune base maps I hear is a worthy upgrade as it unleashes the cars potential.

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[MERAKIAUTOWORKS]

PRL parts is a great bang for buck, paired with an exhaust to open them up!

-Josh

 

[SeanIsElsewhere]

wow, well i dont have to worry about emmision up in Canada..
Will the fumes be really noticeable?
Smell strong inside and out?

for now; I’ve been hearing a lot climate-related nonsense come from your new leader :/

 

[Rogues Gambit]

Address the cooling first; Intercooler and charge pipes, plus reverse flow radiator hose. Then down+Front Pipes, tune, This kit (Include the High Volume intake) and you should have a good basis

Also this for handling

 

[ABPDE5]

Address the cooling first; Intercooler and charge pipes, plus reverse flow radiator hose. Then down+Front Pipes, tune, This kit (Include the High Volume intake) and you should have a good basis

Also this for handling

I agree on cooling, but the approach here is flawed, I think, based on reports here and on the FL5 forum.

All signs point to charge pipes being a waste, and most intercoolers (as they are bar and plate) being detrimental. A good tube and fin intercooler might be helpful, but they are expensive. We are seeing that these large bar and plate intercoolers are inefficient and do a poor job shedding heat once they soak; more importantly, they block airflow to the radiator, causing increased coolant and oil temps. Intercoolers like the PRL, etc., will lead to better IATs for your first couple pulls, until they heat soak. After that, they will struggle to radiate heat (and they will lead to increased water temps).

If you want to improve cooling, look to increase airflow via a vented hood and / or bottom plate, and then look for a better radiator and / or oil cooling solutions.

If you're chasing power, best bang-for-buck is a tune, followed by a downpipe. The intake won't become a limiting factor until after you've upgraded fueling / turbo. (An intake will give you some louder turbo noises, though.)

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I agree on cooling, but the approach here is flawed, I think, based on reports here and on the FL5 forum.

All signs point to charge pipes being a waste, and most intercoolers (as they are bar and plate) being detrimental. A good tube and fin intercooler might be helpful, but they are expensive. We are seeing that these large bar and plate intercoolers are inefficient and do a poor job shedding heat once they soak; more importantly, they block airflow to the radiator, causing increased coolant and oil temps. Intercoolers like the PRL, etc., will lead to better IATs for your first couple pulls, until they heat soak. After that, they will struggle to radiate heat (and they will lead to increased water temps).

If you want to improve cooling, look to increase airflow via a vented hood and / or bottom plate, and then look for a better radiator and / or oil cooling solutions.

If you're chasing power, best bang-for-buck is a tune, followed by a downpipe. The intake won't become a limiting factor until after you've upgraded fueling / turbo. (An intake will give you some louder turbo noises, though.)

Correct.

One of the best ways to really address cooling is to seal off every bit of gap around the front of the intercooler/radiator. Racing tape is key for this, https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3320

Most people don't want to go down that route though.

An upgrade to the top vent doesn't exist today, but the factory one is missing a wicker and it isn't open/tall enough to be super efficient. It is however, in the correct place and of correct sizing. The hrc style hood will not be as efficient since you really want a center opening as far forward and close to behind the radiator stack as possible. I haven't tried yet, but I imagine it would be pretty easy to get some aluminum sheeting and make your own louvre and wicker. I need to give it a go though!

 

[bisquick]

I agree on cooling, but the approach here is flawed, I think, based on reports here and on the FL5 forum.

All signs point to charge pipes being a waste, and most intercoolers (as they are bar and plate) being detrimental. A good tube and fin intercooler might be helpful, but they are expensive. We are seeing that these large bar and plate intercoolers are inefficient and do a poor job shedding heat once they soak; more importantly, they block airflow to the radiator, causing increased coolant and oil temps. Intercoolers like the PRL, etc., will lead to better IATs for your first couple pulls, until they heat soak. After that, they will struggle to radiate heat (and they will lead to increased water temps).

If you want to improve cooling, look to increase airflow via a vented hood and / or bottom plate, and then look for a better radiator and / or oil cooling solutions.

If you're chasing power, best bang-for-buck is a tune, followed by a downpipe. The intake won't become a limiting factor until after you've upgraded fueling / turbo. (An intake will give you some louder turbo noises, though.)

Not disagreeing with some of your points, but what data do you have to support these claims?

 

[Rogues Gambit]

I agree on cooling, but the approach here is flawed, I think, based on reports here and on the FL5 forum.

All signs point to charge pipes being a waste, and most intercoolers (as they are bar and plate) being detrimental. A good tube and fin intercooler might be helpful, but they are expensive. We are seeing that these large bar and plate intercoolers are inefficient and do a poor job shedding heat once they soak; more importantly, they block airflow to the radiator, causing increased coolant and oil temps. Intercoolers like the PRL, etc., will lead to better IATs for your first couple pulls, until they heat soak. After that, they will struggle to radiate heat (and they will lead to increased water temps).

If you want to improve cooling, look to increase airflow via a vented hood and / or bottom plate, and then look for a better radiator and / or oil cooling solutions.

If you're chasing power, best bang-for-buck is a tune, followed by a downpipe. The intake won't become a limiting factor until after you've upgraded fueling / turbo. (An intake will give you some louder turbo noises, though.)

Really? That's the first I'm hearing about that. I'd do the Radiator anyway, but upgraded a few intercoolers on 3 of my cars and got gains. As @bisquick said, wanna show me where you got your claims?

 

[ABPDE5]

Not disagreeing with some of your points, but what data do you have to support these claims?

Hop over to the FL5 forums and dig through the track threads (linked a couple below that are on the first 2 pa). They're long reads at this point, if you're starting fresh and haven't been following along over the last couple years, but there is a huge amount of both anecdotal data and on-track comparisons with ambient, oil, and coolant temps, etc.

Really? That's the first I'm hearing about that. I'd do the Radiator anyway, but upgraded a few intercoolers on 3 of my cars and got gains. As @bisquick said, wanna show me where you got your claims?

Experience will vary by platform. I am not saying intercoolers can't be beneficial. I am specifically talking about this platform (FL5 / DE5) and the majority of available intercoolers. These cars rely on the radiator as the only heat exchanger for coolant and oil. They also use an integrated manifold to improve emissions (via retaining heat -- which hurts performance), reduce turbo lag, and lower costs; this retains heat, which makes coolant / oil temps a priority.
Because of this, the major performance bottlekneck re: cooling is radiator efficiency. You want to maximize airflow over the radiator, and that means reducing impediments -- including the intercooler.

A high-flow / efficient tube and fin intercooler can be a net positive, as it will lower IATs and have relatively minimal negative impact on radiator efficiency (they are all ~$2k+), but these large bar and plate intercoolers substantially impede airflow to the radiator. You will see power gains and reduced IATs on your first couple pulls -- especially on a dyno with limited airflow (which is what companies like PRL are relying on to push their products) -- but after that, the intercoolers will heatsoak, their inefficient designs will prevent them from shedding heat, and they will drastically impair the functionality of the radiator -- which is the most important factor for this platform.

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/wot-performance-hpt-cooling-plate.56969/

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/the-fl5-track-junkie-thread.52760/

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/cooling-mods-for-the-average-joe.57018/

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/all-the-available-aftermarket-fmics-are-bad.55908/

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/fl5-overheated-on-track.52620/

 

[Rogues Gambit]

Hop over to the FL5 forums and dig through the track threads (linked a couple below that are on the first 2 pa). They're long reads at this point, if you're starting fresh and haven't been following along over the last couple years, but there is a huge amount of both anecdotal data and on-track comparisons with ambient, oil, and coolant temps, etc.



Experience will vary by platform. I am not saying intercoolers can't be beneficial. I am specifically talking about this platform (FL5 / DE5) and the majority of available intercoolers. These cars rely on the radiator as the only heat exchanger for coolant and oil. They also use an integrated manifold to improve emissions (via retaining heat -- which hurts performance), reduce turbo lag, and lower costs; this retains heat, which makes coolant / oil temps a priority.
Because of this, the major performance bottlekneck re: cooling is radiator efficiency. You want to maximize airflow over the radiator, and that means reducing impediments -- including the intercooler.

A high-flow / efficient tube and fin intercooler can be a net positive, as it will lower IATs and have relatively minimal negative impact on radiator efficiency (they are all ~$2k+), but these large bar and plate intercoolers substantially impede airflow to the radiator. You will see power gains and reduced IATs on your first couple pulls -- especially on a dyno with limited airflow (which is what companies like PRL are relying on to push their products) -- but after that, the intercoolers will heatsoak, their inefficient designs will prevent them from shedding heat, and they will drastically impair the functionality of the radiator -- which is the most important factor for this platform.

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/wot-performance-hpt-cooling-plate.56969/

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/the-fl5-track-junkie-thread.52760/

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/cooling-mods-for-the-average-joe.57018/

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/all-the-available-aftermarket-fmics-are-bad.55908/

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/fl5-overheated-on-track.52620/

I'll take a look now, ty for the links

 

[ABPDE5]

I should add:
One of the major reasons we run into cooling issues with this platform and why the radiator is so important is the design of the water loop.

Honda designed the loop to balance a lot of priorities. They aren't just trying to manage peak temps; they are trying to ensure reliability and meet emissions targets, and they are catering to the majority of their audience, which never pushes the limits of the platform.

As a result, the thermostat and loop design are designed to get the car up to temp as quickly as possible (to hit emissions targets and ensure drivers don't damage their cars by asking too much of a cold system). The loop design has a large number of parallel elements, and this reduces the ability to efficiently extract heat from the turbo and the head -- compounding cooling issues causes by packaging and the integrated manifold -- and again putting a substantial priority on the radiator.

There is a thread on the FL5 forums that dives into the loop design and suggests modifications... I think this is it (if not, the OP was the same):
https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/an-in-depth-talk-about-fl5-ecu-tuning.52545/

 

[Rogues Gambit]

Damn, so much for simple and straight forward mods. Looks like a new radiator first then and wot performance cooling plate

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Damn, so much for simple and straight forward mods. Looks like a new radiator first then and wot performance cooling plate

Water and water wetter is simpler, faster, cheaper, and will result in better cooling performance.

Bonus points (cooling and aero) for properly sealing off the cooling stack so all ingress air is forced through it.

 

[ABPDE5]

Promising developments, here
https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/wot-performance-hpt-cooling-plate.56969/post-950420

Nice to see a community member investing in producing quality solutions.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

Promising developments, here
https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/wot-performance-hpt-cooling-plate.56969/post-950420

Nice to see a community member investing in producing quality solutions.

Wow, great data. It really goes to show how good the stock cooling system is! Under 300F on oil temps and under 240F on coolant is a great place to be on track for a street car. At those temps you shouldn't really worry about being "too hot" and simple changes like water + water wetter would drop colant temp a solid 15F.

I do wonder how his street temps look. With the oil cooler on my gti, I couldn't keep oil hot on the street and in winter I had to block off my louvres and change oil every few months since it rarely went above 190F. As long as he can get to operating temp within 5mins he should be good.

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