Type S vs Golf R

[Rdrcr]

Respectfully disagree.

The GTI is a historic driver’s car, without which we wouldn’t have the civic type r, integra type r or now the Integra type s.

You’re saying taking that car and adding power and an awd system somehow makes it not a driver’s car? That seems like some arbitrary gatekeeping to me. The only people buying Golf Rs are enthusiasts - that is, drivers.

I can totally agree that by all accounts the Type S has better inputs and feedback, but I’d stop short of disqualifying the Golf R altogether. I think we’re lucky both of these exist in a market jam-packed with CUVs and in light of the EV takeover.

Historically, yes.
But, for the modern examples, I would define them as 'enthusiasts' cars more than 'drivers' cars.

I've owned a 2002 GTI 337, 2004 R32, and 2008 R32 for reference.
The GTI 337 was my favorite of the bunch....though, I loved the sound of the R32's.

Mike

 

[6-Speedio]

Huh? All of those have AWD... as does the Golf R. It's just the ITS that does not.

A few of the BMW options like the 230i & M240i have xDrive as an option tough.

Hmmm you're entirely right. I watched a video a week or two ago comparing all of these and they were talking about how they're all FWD based... Which seemed odd to me but I didn't dig into it any further. Here's a lesson to myself to not trust YouTube videos

 

[Ricochet48]

Hmmm you're entirely right. I watched a video a week or two ago comparing all of these and they were talking about how they're all FWD based... Which seemed odd to me but I didn't dig into it any further. Here's a lesson to myself to not trust YouTube videos

FWD based AWD is correct. On the other hand the M240i xDrive is RWD based AWD. Obviously most drivers prefer the RWD bias.

 

[RUNN1N]

SavageGeese did a comparison review on the CTR, Golf R, Elantra N, GRC, and (almost) the Subaru S209--obviously no Type-S (video was produced pre-embargo), but they did a nice job hammering out the pros and cons of each (with an actual race car driver, no less):



The ITS will fail to carry the CTR's stellar seating reviews... but much of everything else is a direct carryover.




SPOILER: B. Casey raved about the CTR (seating, rev-matching, and shifter), and the Elantra N. The reviewer from C&D loved the CTR, and the Golf R was his least favorite. Jack loved the CTR, said the Elantra N was his 2nd favorite and a "budget version" of the CTR, liked the Subaru (which died), and the Golf R was his 4th favorite. Mark loved his CTR (big surprise), and the Elantra N was his 2nd favorite (reliability was his concern, but he did like the suspension tuning better in the N vs the CTR). Mark's review of the Golf R was pretty rough--he said it felt like it was trying to be too many things, like 10 different departments made it, and like it'd been nerf'ed. These aren't exactly issues that tactile infotainment alterations will fix, IMO.

 

[6-Speedio]

SavageGeese did a comparison review on the CTR, Golf R, Elantra N, GRC, and (almost) the Subaru S209--obviously no Type-S (video was produced pre-embargo), but they did a nice job hammering out the pros and cons of each (with an actual race car driver, no less):



The ITS will fail to carry the CTR's stellar seating reviews... but much of everything else is a direct carryover.




SPOILER: B. Casey raved about the CTR (seating, rev-matching, and shifter), and the Elantra N. The reviewer from C&D loved the CTR, and the Golf R was his least favorite. Jack loved the CTR, said the Elantra N was his 2nd favorite and a "budget version" of the CTR, liked the Subaru (which died), and the Golf R was his 4th favorite. Mark loved his CTR (big surprise), and the Elantra N was his 2nd favorite (reliability was his concern, but he did like the suspension tuning better in the N vs the CTR). Mark's review of the Golf R was pretty rough--he said it felt like it was trying to be too many things, like 10 different departments made it, and like it'd been nerf'ed. These aren't exactly issues that tactile infotainment alterations will fix, IMO.

I haven't had any seat time in the FL5, but the FK8 seats are absolutely superb. My take on the savagegeese video is those guys seem like they're VERY into track driving, which in all honesty is an incredibly tiny portion of society. They mention stuff that even the occassional autocross enthusiasts wouldn't gripe about.

For those looking for a track weapon, they're better off getting a CTR. That's not to say the ITS is bad, but the CTR is better made for it. For those that want a fun daily that can also play around on track, the ITS would be a better fit.

It sounds like the electronic suspension is the exact same in the CTR and ITS, only that the ITS has been tuned to ride softer. I wonder if there will be solutions from Hondata or someone else, who will be able to change the firmness of the dampers.

 

[RUNN1N]

For those that want a fun daily that can also play around on track, the ITS would be a better fit.

Totally agree--I've enjoyed all ~200 miles on mine, even when I've gotten stuck behind arguably less "fun daily drivers"... which seems to happen all too often.

 

[ZeroGSR]

I haven't had any seat time in the FL5, but the FK8 seats are absolutely superb. My take on the savagegeese video is those guys seem like they're VERY into track driving, which in all honesty is an incredibly tiny portion of society. They mention stuff that even the occassional autocross enthusiasts wouldn't gripe about.

For those looking for a track weapon, they're better off getting a CTR. That's not to say the ITS is bad, but the CTR is better made for it. For those that want a fun daily that can also play around on track, the ITS would be a better fit.

It sounds like the electronic suspension is the exact same in the CTR and ITS, only that the ITS has been tuned to ride softer. I wonder if there will be solutions from Hondata or someone else, who will be able to change the firmness of the dampers.

You don't need Hondata, you can likely buy the FL5 ADS ($350) and drop it in. FK8 owners did it for the LE. That said, more recent information is that the springs are softer on the ITS, especially in the front. So still won't be 1:1 if true.

 

[Integra23]

I haven't had any seat time in the FL5, but the FK8 seats are absolutely superb. My take on the savagegeese video is those guys seem like they're VERY into track driving, which in all honesty is an incredibly tiny portion of society. They mention stuff that even the occassional autocross enthusiasts wouldn't gripe about.

For those looking for a track weapon, they're better off getting a CTR. That's not to say the ITS is bad, but the CTR is better made for it. For those that want a fun daily that can also play around on track, the ITS would be a better fit.

It sounds like the electronic suspension is the exact same in the CTR and ITS, only that the ITS has been tuned to ride softer. I wonder if there will be solutions from Hondata or someone else, who will be able to change the firmness of the dampers.

I can almost guarantee we will se hondata Support the ITS

 

[6-Speedio]

I can almost guarantee we will se hondata Support the ITS

Support for the engine, yes, but the question is whether or not they do so for the suspension. But it sounds like there may already be an option of using the ADS part off the FL5. I'm sure people will test that theory in no time.

 

[Ricochet48]

The ITS will fail to carry the CTR's stellar seating reviews... but much of everything else is a direct carryover.

Well except for the $7K MSRP increase... which puts the ITS in a whole other league. (Yes I know the CTR goes for over MSRP though).

 

[RUNN1N]

Well except for the $7K MSRP increase... which puts the ITS in a whole other league. (Yes I know the CTR goes for over MSRP though).

Yeah we really need to quit hammering the difference in MSRP as if the CTR can actually be found at MSRP. Don't get me wrong, there are people who get it at MSRP (Savagegeese Mark, for instance) but guys like him have effectively donated an ADM-worth of time and energy in one way or another.... so when you factor that in, is it actually $44k? Nah.

Then there are people who make it to the top of a list with MSRP-committed Honda dealerships and actually get the chance to buy at $44k... but those cars aren't being kept. At least not around here. Honda Marysville is selling CTR's at MSRP... but they "don't have a list" and they "won't pre-sell a CTR" (even in transit)... but they're all mysteriously spoken for before they arrive, and coincidentally make their way after a couple hundred miles to Performance Luxury Sport (a specialty car dealership a few doors away). Can you blame them though? How long would you hold onto a depreciating asset that's automatically worth 20% more than you paid for it immediately after signing? A 20% ROI is tough to find.

 

[optronix]

Respectfully disagree.

The GTI is a historic driver’s car, without which we wouldn’t have the civic type r, integra type r or now the Integra type s.

You’re saying taking that car and adding power and an awd system somehow makes it not a driver’s car? That seems like some arbitrary gatekeeping to me. The only people buying Golf Rs are enthusiasts - that is, drivers.

I can totally agree that by all accounts the Type S has better inputs and feedback, but I’d stop short of disqualifying the Golf R altogether. I think we’re lucky both of these exist in a market jam-packed with CUVs and in light of the EV takeover.

That's fine, we're all talking opinions here. It gets down to how you define "driver's car". For me, it's a car I actively want to go and drive.

A Golf R is not that car for me. I had an S3 and it was a fun car, and I feel like the Golf version of that car would cater to enthusiasts, as you say. But it's not an inspiring car to drive. It's more like, I'll have fun driving a Golf R/S3 when I have to drive because I have somewhere to go. That could fit the bill of an "enthusiast car" as well, because if you're not an enthusiast you'll just get a base Golf or something truly boring.

A "driver's car", to me, is more like I drive the car because that's how I choose to have fun. That's how it's been with select cars I've owned, and I believe the Acura will be another one and that's why I'm interested. I'm not interested in the Golf R WHATSOEVER, despite it checking all the other boxes I need checked.

Big difference.

 

[Azkyrie6]

You don't need Hondata, you can likely buy the FL5 ADS ($350) and drop it in. FK8 owners did it for the LE. That said, more recent information is that the springs are softer on the ITS, especially in the front. So still won't be 1:1 if true.

Forgive me for asking, as I’ve never been a tuner. What does hondata or reflashing do to give such large gains in HP/torque? Would it be harmful to the vehicles components in the long run?

 

[optronix]

Forgive me for asking, as I’ve never been a tuner. What does hondata or reflashing do to give such large gains in HP/torque? Would it be harmful to the vehicles components in the long run?

From the factory, OEMs have to account for longevity. So they build in quite a large margin of overhead with a very conservative tune to make sure the engine can't be harmed even if it is abused. Reduces repair costs over time, warranty claims, etc. One example of this is owners putting less-than-premium fuel in it. OEMs have to account for that, even it it's "recommended" for premium fuel, idiot owners are going to not do this and the car can't throw a piston through the hood if someone puts crap gas in it and takes it to a racetrack. Someone out there has done this, I assure you.

A "tune" or "flash" basically just reprograms certain parameters to within a much smaller threshold than what it came with from the factory. For turbo cars in particular, raising boost pressure is very easily done and a few other tweaks to maintain the correct air/fuel ratio can yield an eye-popping amount of power without having to replace any sort of hardware.

As for it being harmful, it's tough to argue against the fact that it's not at least "more harmful" than the OEM tune. So with any tune, you assume that risk. And some people have been burned, it's important to be aware of that. And by "burned" I mean, a catastrophic engine failure and the dealership/manufacturer not covering the cost of repair. But these situations are rare, especially with the well-known tuners out there like Hondata, Cobb, APR, M-engineering, etc. etc.

But they do happen. It's important to have your eyes wide open when you make the decision on whether to tune your car or not.

 

[VarmintCong]

Hmmm you're entirely right. I watched a video a week or two ago comparing all of these and they were talking about how they're all FWD based... Which seemed odd to me but I didn't dig into it any further. Here's a lesson to myself to not trust YouTube videos

FWD based means they’re FWD vehicles with AWD added. Compared to say a rear drive 3 series or C class with added AWD.

The 2 series sedan is FWD based, basically a Mini Cooper, but the M240i coupe is still RWD based.