Integra Type S K20C8 Engine?

[optronix]

That's pretty impressive, but still doesn't feel like it's worth it for 99% of people who don't plan on taking their car to a dragstrip.

Which again, I'll argue isn't what this car is best suited for in the first place.

The gains are impressive though, no doubt about that. Especially considering you don't have to tweak the head (cams still scare me though in a Honda "interference engine"; they do mention something about adjusting the VTC gears in their blog or you'll bend valves)

About the camshafts
We narrowed this test down to the best performing “drop-in” camshaft of the bunch, and the best “mild race” camshaft of the bunch. What we consider a “drop-in” camshaft is one that you can install into a stock head using a stock valve spring. These cams still require limiting of the VTC gears so that piston to valve contact doesn’t occur. Even minimal changes in lift and duration in these engines require you to limit the variable camshaft so that you do not have valve to piston contact. We did all of the original testing on Motec to eliminate cams that didn’t perform, and keep the best performing profiles. I am most familiar with that software and we don’t have to work within the confines of some of the Bosch background programming to make sure we chose the best profiles. I will refer to the cams in this test as the names below.
TR2 – Drop in
TR3 - Mild Race Profile, Requires Valve Spring due to coil bind
TR4 – Race Profile (the TR4 test will be covered in another blog as it is more complicated to install and requires Motec or other motorsports grade ECU)

Overall though I retract my statement about cams in this engine. Seems like a worthy upgrade for those who do just have to get more power in a DE5/FL5/FK8.

 

[Azkyrie6]

That's pretty impressive, but still doesn't feel like it's worth it for 99% of people who don't plan on taking their car to a dragstrip.

Which again, I'll argue isn't what this car is best suited for in the first place.

The gains are impressive though, no doubt about that. Especially considering you don't have to tweak the head (cams still scare me though in a Honda "interference engine"; they do mention something about adjusting the VTC gears in their blog or you'll bend valves)



Overall though I retract my statement about cams in this engine. Seems like a worthy upgrade for those who do just have to get more power in a DE5/FL5/FK8.

I certainly agree with you, the ITS isn’t best suited in a drag strip. People will still do it anyway because of culture or fast and furious quarter mile is everything. But hey if that’s what people enjoy then so be it.

4pistons claim is the TR2 cams will get you 20-40HP 40+ torque, TR3 cams 40-60hp 60+ torque.

as with anything it’s best to get the upgrades from someone who knows what they’re doing, but also the driver has to know how their car will behave. $1500 for new cams plus installation costs isn’t a small amount for most people. It’s a consideration for people who want to upgrade power without larger turbos but also for people who want it all with large turbos.

as for those who have to get more power out of DE5/FL5/FK8, Honda/acuras we’re always a platform for modding lol. Large aftermarket support with reliability over many other car manufacturers.

for me personally if I had 500HP I honestly don’t know what I would do with it, not a racer. Not a fan of huge repair/maintenance bills either so any mod would have to be proven solid. Power hunger is sort of a rabbit hole many can get trapped into, to the point where cars can only be driven on drag strips/tracks. Certainly not my goal when I’m driving around children lol

 

[optronix]

I guess I never really understood what the appeal was for 500+ whp out of a front-drive car. Weirdly I've noticed a lot of people that do extensive engine mods don't race either... but who am I to question people's hobbies? It's just not something I'd be interested in doing personally, so I'll just watch from a distance.

I've also seen too many examples of people blowing up their daily drivers for no other reason than they want to "make it go fast". That part really evades my sense of logic. Part of the appeal of the Integra, at least for me buying new, is the warranty. I'll buy a second car if I have to get back into serious tuner stuff... and at least for me, I still think there are better options than the Integra for a non-essential "toy" car. Another appeal for the ITS is its do-everything nature... for $50k I could get a very nice 987.2 Cayman, E46, M2, the list goes on. Not that the ITS is a bad platform, but for a dedicated sports/track car there are more focused platforms.

Oh well, I'm sure someone out there will make it their goal in life to get an ITS into the 9s...

 

[Romeoridgee]

K20c8 is same as c1 as far as part numbers between honda and Acura parts catalog expect for pistons. Block, head, cams, rods, and more are same part number.

 

[ABPDE5]

K20c8 is same as c1 as far as part numbers between honda and Acura parts catalog expect for pistons. Block, head, cams, rods, and more are same part number.

Interesting... where did you get this info?

I had been under the understanding they were identical. When I check Dreamshop, the piston part #s are the same

Piston Set (A) - 13010-66V-A00
Piston Set (B) - 13020-66V-A00

Shows for both the Type-R and the Type-S.

 

[Romeoridgee]

Interesting... where did you get this info?

I had been under the understanding they were identical. When I check Dreamshop, the piston part #s are the same

Piston Set (A) - 13010-66V-A00
Piston Set (B) - 13020-66V-A00

Shows for both the Type-R and the Type-S.

I’m a Honda dealer tech. The pistons are compatible. So yes they would fit a type r.

 

[ABPDE5]

I’m a Honda dealer tech. The pistons are compatible. So yes they would fit a type r.

Both cars show both piston sets, though. When I look in the parts catalogue under: Engine > Crankshaft - Piston... all parts in the Type-R catalog and all parts in the Type-S catalog have the exact same part #s (i.e. both Type-R and Type-S show as in the attached).

Where are you seeing varying part #s? Are you suggesting one car uses only Set (A) and one car uses only Set (B), even though both sets show up under both cars?

 

[QUIKAG]

The DE5 and FL5 motors are the exact same, tune is only difference from what I understand.

 

[Romeoridgee]

Both cars show both piston sets, though. When I look in the parts catalogue under: Engine > Crankshaft - Piston... all parts in the Type-R catalog and all parts in the Type-S catalog have the exact same part #s (i.e. both Type-R and Type-S show as in the attached).

Where are you seeing varying part #s? Are you suggesting one car uses only Set (A) and one car uses only Set (B), even though both sets show up under both cars?

The DE5 and FL5 motors are the exact same, tune is only difference from what I understand.

I was comparing to fk8 (I own a 10th gen civic), I will check for fl5 when I get off lunch.

 

[Romeoridgee]

11th gen c1/teggy c8 is same everything just stamped different. Fk8 is same everything but pistons (13010/20-rpy-g01). Not sure what’s different about these new ones.

 

[ABPDE5]

11th gen c1/teggy c8 is same everything just stamped different. Fk8 is same everything but pistons (13010/20-rpy-g01). Not sure what’s different about these new ones.

Interesting! Thanks for checking.

 

[ABPDE5]

11th gen c1/teggy c8 is same everything just stamped different. Fk8 is same everything but pistons (13010/20-rpy-g01). Not sure what’s different about these new ones.

Follow up... any chance you can use your inside info to find out what was changed? Just curious.

 

[Integra23]

11th gen c1/teggy c8 is same everything just stamped different. Fk8 is same everything but pistons (13010/20-rpy-g01). Not sure what’s different about these new ones.

I believe they coated them differently in the FL5/DE5

 

[Jpierro79]

incredibly informative. Thank you two. I’m excited to see people add mods and have fun with this car. Should be an extremely capable engine. What will be interesting is if the ITS has any overheating issues the FK8 has and the ~400ftlbs torque limit before the rods and camshafts start having issues

This statement about the rods is in accurate and it’s all tuning error. I’ve pushed well over 100 of them beyond 400ft lbs and up to as much as 450 torque with no issues. I’ve even got customer with 95k on the clock making 620whp and 445tq on a dynojet. Not some hub dyno. The trans will break first if tuned right.
The camshafts have nothing to do with hp it torque. It’s people banging the rev limit all day and miss shifting causes the intake cam reluctor to move which is only pressed on. Since the DE5 Fl5 and fk8 all use the same exact part for the intake camshaft they will have the same issues.

One of biggest issues are filter assemblies clogging from ethanol causing misfires and lack of understanding of direct injection again having misfires and people just beating on them in that state rather than figuring out the issues. The problem is both direct injection and bad spark plugs can cause misfires, however understanding where it happens in the RPM range will give a legitimate tuner who understands direct injection as to which is the actual problem.
When you push a direct injector too far it misfires, and when you misfire under a heavy load you can cause severe damage because your engine is no longer in a balanced state, and you will literally shake it apart.

 

[Jpierro79]

That’s quite significant if true. Although we’ve seen the ITS do well in straight line races vs CTR.

here’s an interesting article on upgrading camshaft. I’d be interested in doing this and Ross upgrade before actual bolt ons

https://4pistonracing.com/blogs/news/fl5-civic-type-r-4p-tr2-camshaft-install-and-dyno-test

I actually tuned Honda pro Jason’s Fl5. I was conservative so to keep a safe tune for 93 yet made sure it was ultra responsive. That fl5 turbo didn’t have much more in it anyway without turning into a hair dryer. I can assure you the k20c8 doesn’t have any advantage over the k20c1.
Separate non related note on the 400 hp limit is a myth for those who don’t know. It’s 400 ft lbs if torque below 4k is dangerous.

The biggest weak point is the intake cam reluctor is pressed on and will eventually move regardless of rpm but mis shift and hitting rev limit a lot will make it break sooner. I’ve tuned at least 75-100 over 500hp and no issues with rods. Its lack of maintenance and understanding pounding the rev limit is not good for an engine. I seen a guy blame mobile one for ruining his engine but he didn’t change the oil for 10k on his built engine. I run 15w50 mobile at 843whp and had no issues.

You can’t make 75 percent more hp on stock engine and expect to do stock oil change intervals. You can’t run ethanol in a non flex fuel designed car and let it sit for a week at a time.
I think the best way to look at this is I have a customer that has 95,000 miles on his stock Bottom end. Making 620 hp on e50 DI only to the wheels on a dynojet and trust me when I tell you, he is hard on this car, but he maintains it very well.

As far as upgrading the camshaft while keeping tuning easy get a Kelford drop in can. Good for about 20-30 hp over stock on bigger turbo and easy to tune. No VCT limiter pins required it’s a true drop in cam.
Also Kelford cam stage 1 is NOT a copy of a tr2 and Kelford stage 2 is NOT a copy of tr3.

They are totally different. Stage 2 Kelford has 15 degrees more of in car actually lift. You can’t go by spec sheets alone. I measure using wear patterns on the cans that show actual lift contact.
They do have a bit less lift area at peak but you spend almost no time at peak lift compare to low lift area. Also airspeed is higher at lower lift so fuel mixes better on a lower lift high duration cam when working with DI. Last point is Kelford non Vtec lobe is waaay different. They use a larger non vtec lobe and still get great street manners.

I’m not saying tr2 or tr3 cams are bad they aren’t. Kelford just didn’t copy them is what I’m saying. Kelford are the brown colored cans. The pics show tr3 be Kelford stage 2.
The only cam I haven’t tested yet is Kelford stage 1 due to back order.
Trust when I say unless you have a gigantic turbo don’t buy a stage 2 Kelford or a tr3.

Head porting makes a huge difference don’t be fooled as I spool a g35-1050 by 4500 rpm without nitrous or any crazy anti lag tricks. Just straight cylinder head port work.