Sound system build progress thread (warning: will be slooooow)

[ashmostro]

NOTE: the original system plan is scrapped. Rather than delete it, I did a strikethrough for posterity.

This is the new plan.

Yo.

So I hate the SQ of the factory ELS system. It sounds muddy, unbalanced through the frequency range, the imaging sucks butt (even in Neural Surround mode), blah blah blah.


Things I wanna do, not necessarily all at the same time:

• Sound deaden the doors, door cards, trunk floor, and inside of the OE subwoofer enclosure
• Integrate a DSP amp in, likely an Audiotec-Fischer MATCH UP 10 DSP. I will have to build my own T harness for the amp since none exist on the market. The amp will likely mount under the passenger seat, given the dash location of the factory amp.
• Upgrade the front door and center channel speakers, the rear C-pillar speakers, and the subwoofer. The MATCH amp will drive all these speakers. I have not yet determined if the front door/A pillar speakers are all on their own channels or running off a passive crossover network (if you know, please respond here!)
• I will disconnect the front roof speakers and rear door speakers. They are over complicating the sound quality.

My current top choices for the replacement speakers are:

• Front door woofers: Hertz C 165L 6.5" cone, chosen for optimal Qts and dispersion up to a 900Hz lowpass point
• Front door midranges: Dayton Audio CF50N-4 2" dome, chosen for excellent dispersion up to a 2.8kHz crossover point
• Front A pillar tweeters: Dayton Audio CF18N-4 3/4" dome, chosen for excellent dispersion
  • Edit - going with the Peerless OX20SC00-04 instead
• Front center channel: Dayton Audio CF50N-4 2" dome (bandpass 900 to 2.8kHz)
  • Edit - going with the Faital 4FE42 4" cone midrange instead and can run it down to ~300Hz in that position
• Rear C-pillar midranges: Dayton Audio CF50N-4 2" dome (bandpass 900 to 2.8kHz)
• Rear subwoofer: Rockford P3SD4-8 (already proven to work well in the stock enclosure)

As implied, the crossover points are:

• Sub: infrasonic to 80Hz
• Woofers: 80Hz to 900Hz
• Midranges: 900Hz to 2.8kHz
• Tweeters: 2.8kHz to ultrasonic

Whether I use passive crossovers (which I will build and have already designed) or active depends on the factory wiring of the front door and A pillar speakers. If they are each their own channel (which they probably aren't) then I will go full active, which is my preference. Heck, I might even run my own wiring if they aren't, given the HUGE advantage that time delaying such a setup affords.


Any fellow SQ-heads in here? Thoughts?

-Ash

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[ashmostro]

Oh and here's the front stage passive crossover if I'm forced to go that route:

 

[UWU-mancer]

These mf’s are building a bomb…..

 

[ashmostro]

Update: I'm also considering the Peerless OX20SC00-04 tweeter for a much easier installation since they could just be glued into the existing locations without having to build and finish a flange. I don't like the frequency response as much but EQ can fix that.

 

[ashmostro]

Aaaand another change.

The Dayton dome midrange won't do well in the center channel location as a voice speaker (I will have it set up to only output for infotainment interactions).

I'm going to go with a Faital 4FE42 4" cone midrange instead. It has the added benefit of being a wideband so I'll get better top end extension than with the Dayton (not that it's needed for voice, but it's a free bonus).

 

[Cantrip]

Total est. cost?

 

[ashmostro]

Total est. cost?

Good question! I am focusing on best bang-for-the-buck by optimizing driver selection to each location which means you don't have to buy the best of everything, just the best of what you need without breaking the bank.

The drivers themselves will be about $620 MSRP before tax and shipping.
The amp will be in the $1.2k range, depending on whether I go with 8 or 10 channels (which depends on the factory speaker wiring configuration).

This is assuming the following locations will get new speakers: front doors, front a pillars, front center channel, rear sub. I'll probably re use the rear fill speakers in the C pillars given there is very little room in that location and I will be attenuating and delaying these for spatial effect rather than front stage augmentation.

 

[Cantrip]

Good luck. I wish I could hear it when you're done.

 

[ashmostro]

Have been really going down the rabbit hole with this system plan and it's changed quite a bit.

I listen to mostly prog metal/rock and while I like to crank it now and then, I tend to listen to moderate-high volume rather than concert levels. This is relevant in how I have chosen to design the system to prioritize the dynamics typically present in this genre. Sub-bass is there, but not in the levels you hear in electronic or hip-hop genres. So, the 8" sub in the factory enclosure works fine for my needs.

This is the probably final plan. I will be totally disabling or rerouting (i.e. center channel) the following factory speaker locations: center, roof, rear doors, rear C-pillars.


1. Component Hardware List

• DSP Amplifier: Audison AF C8.14 bit (8-Channel)
  • Role: Main system processing + Front Stage Power.
• Subwoofer Amplifier: JL Audio JD250/1AudioControl EPIC1000 (Monoblock)
  • Role: Driving subwoofer @ 2 Ohms (250W headroom).
• Front Midbass: Stereo Integrity TM65 mkIV (6.5" Woofer)
  • Location: Front Doors (Sealed/Deadened + hard baffle to replace vapor barrier).
  • Wiring: Bridged Channels (200W per driver).
• Front Midrange: Audiofrog GS25 (2.5" Full Range)OneAudio WB3.e (3" full range)
  • Location: Dash Corners (Sealed Pods ~0.4L).
• Front Tweeter: Peerless OT19NC00-04 (19mm Ring Radiator)Seas Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) (1" soft dome)
  • Location: Factory A-Pillar.
• Subwoofer: Rockford Fosgate P3SD4-8 (8" Shallow DVC 4-Ohm)Rockford Fosgate P3SD2-8 (8" shallow DVC 2-ohm)
  • Wiring: Parallel (Final Load: 2 Ohms) Series (Final Load: 4 Ohms).
  • Location: Factory Plastic Enclosure (externally deadened + poly-stuffed).

The Audison amp will be mounted under the passenger seat.
The JL mono sub amp will be in the trunk "spare tire" well.


2. DSP Configuration (Crossovers & Routing)
Global Filter Type: Linkwitz-Riley (unless noted).

Subwoofer Phase: Time-Aligned via DSP (Audison output control).

Channel	Driver	Configuration	High Pass Filter	Low Pass Filter	Slope (dB/Oct)
Sub Out	RF P3SD2-8	Mono (250W)	25 Hz (Butterworth)	50 Hz	48 dB (HP) / 24 dB (LP)
1 + 2	SI TM65	Left Bridged (200W)	50 Hz	350 Hz	24 dB
3 + 4	SI TM65	Right Bridged (200W)	50 Hz	350 Hz	24 dB
5	OA WB3.e	Left Active (65W)	350 Hz	2,500 Hz	24 dB
6	OA WB3.e	Right Active (65W)	350 Hz	2,500 Hz	24 dB
7	Seas 27TFFNC/G	Left Active (65W)	2,500 Hz	—	24 dB
8	Seas 27TFFNC/G	Right Active (65W)	2,500 Hz	—	24 dB

The crossover points and slopes were chosen with the following philosophy:

1. I avoided setting crossover points in the middle of key ranges, such as male or female vocals, and highly-sensitive zones that the human ear takes phasing cues from for locating sound directions - this is the reason for the 250Hz and 4kHz points.
2. All speakers are low-passed significantly below their "beaming" range (where the off axis response starts to differ significantly from the on-axis curve). Only the tweeter will enter its beaming zone but I have chosen 3/4" tweeter to push that frequency as high as possible - around 10kHz. My high frequency hearing isn't all that much above 15kHz and these will be pretty close to inside of 30 degrees off axis left-to-right so it's the best possible scenario for the highest treble which is more of a spatial cue than actual distinct sound anyway.
3. High pass points were chosen to stay a good deal above the resonant frequencies of all drivers other than the subwoofer, in order to maximize power handling and prevent all possibility of over-excursion.
4. The Subwoofer has an extra steep infrasonic filter at 25Hz for this reason as well.
5. That said, I'm letting the midbasses play down to 50Hz which is much lower than the typical 80Hz standard handoff between a sub and front stage. I want maximum transient attack and speed, which the midbasses will do much better than the sub. The sub will just be for augmentation of the lowest "you feel, don't hear" notes.

System hardware cost (not including deadening materials) is around $2,200. Not bad for the performance that I'll get out of it. The sound staging will be insane with the midrange and tweeter locations, and independent time delay.


The only clue that the sound system is not OEM will be the midrange pods mounted in the corners of the dash. Everything else will look OE.

 

[ashmostro]

Pics of the final hardware choices below

 

[ABPDE5]

Take some time to treat the factory sub box when installing the RF woofer. It helps tame resonances, etc. (same with the doors, but that's far more time consuming).

 

[ashmostro]

Yeah, should have stated that will be done too. I'll be applying mass-loading deadening to the *outside* of the enclosure (to prevent reducing internal volume) and adding fill to the interior to aid in harmonic distortion and Q control.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I feel in the last couple weeks my Rockford has finally fully softened up and "broken in". Even without an amp right now it's driving really well and has plenty of bass. Once I sorted the source more and tuned eq more I've been decently happy. Still not the best mids in the business and they can sometimes still be a bit bright but eq took care of most of it.

I like what you're going after and I'm excited to see the progress. Are you planning on doing it in stages? I'm really curious what will be the biggest difference maker, but I suspect the larger door driver and the center will be key.

 

[ashmostro]

That's good to hear about your sub. How much power are you throwing at it, and did you go with 2 or 4ohm "seen" impedance? What amp?

To your question: I will likely do it in stages, but I'm not yet sure in what order because it will depend on time, funds and logistics. If I have to do it in phases, I will do all the sound deadening first, as that will move the needle even on the stock setup, which is a boomy, rattly nasty mess. Then I'll likely do the front stage and sub, and if I decide to do rear fill and a dedicated amplified center channel, that will come last (because I may decide I don't need it).

I've made three further tweaks to the design:

1. Midrange selection: instead of the AudioFrog GS25 I will use the OneAudio WB3.e wideband transducer. The Qts and inductance make it a much better choice for use in pods. It is larger by 1/2" so it will beam sooner, but are the 4,000 Hz 2,500 Hz lowpass it will still be omnidirectional. Highpass will be 350Hz.
2. Tweeter selection: I am reverting back to the Peerless OX20SC00-04 dome tweeter instead of the Peerless ring radiator above. The dome variant matches the efficiency of the OneAudio wideband better, and the beaming frequency will be higher than the ring radiator as well. Mechanically they have very similar, if not identical motor structures. Scratch that, lol. Going up in size to 1" diameter via the Seas Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396)
3. Subwoofer amplifier selection: I think the Rockford will benefit from more power headroom so I'm upping the RMS power supply to 250W (4 ohm nominal load), probably via an AudioControl EPIC1000.

Other than that, the system design remains. I think this is a good recipe for a near studio-quality result for a not-obscene cost of parts (somewhere in the $2,200 range).

 

[ashmostro]

I'm really curious what will be the biggest difference maker, but I suspect the larger door driver and the center will be key.

Honestly, I think DSP and deadening would be the biggest contributors. If I was going real cheapo I would do just those two things, with the factory speakers. As you say, EQ (and time delay) can get you a very long way.

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