ITS vs F80 M3

[optronix]

I keep seeing a theme of "it's going to break". The F8x platform cars have been out for a while now and that's not really been an issue.

There's a tolerance that needs to be established for maintenance and repair costs for sure, and yeah if anything does break on an M3 it's probably an eye-watering amount to fix. But this isn't my first rodeo, and that's never stopped me from owning literally dozens of high-performance German cars in the past, and it wouldn't now.

I will give credit to Honda/Acura though; I can't really place too many "character flaw" type of faults with Hondas like you see with almost every other manufacturer. BMW has been notorious for it throughout history but as mentioned the F8x kind of changed that because there was an emphasis placed during development on longevity, and the cars are proving to be actually reliable with bulletproof engines capable of making nearly 1000whp with the OEM bottom end. There are reports of spun hub bearings though as others have mentioned so there's an asterisk to that...

But Honda/Acura have just been consistently putting out cars that run forever. That's more of an advantage to Acura than a black mark against BMW. It also has something to do with why the BMW makes over 100 more horsepower...

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[6-Speedio]

I keep seeing a theme of "it's going to break". The F8x platform cars have been out for a while now and that's not really been an issue.

There's a tolerance that needs to be established for maintenance and repair costs for sure, and yeah if anything does break on an M3 it's probably an eye-watering amount to fix. But this isn't my first rodeo, and that's never stopped me from owning literally dozens of high-performance German cars in the past, and it wouldn't now.

I will give credit to Honda/Acura though; I can't really place too many "character flaw" type of faults with Hondas like you see with almost every other manufacturer. BMW has been notorious for it throughout history but as mentioned the F8x kind of changed that because there was an emphasis placed during development on longevity, and the cars are proving to be actually reliable with bulletproof engines capable of making nearly 1000whp with the OEM bottom end. There are reports of spun hub bearings though as others have mentioned so there's an asterisk to that...

But Honda/Acura have just been consistently putting out cars that run forever. That's more of an advantage to Acura than a black mark against BMW. It also has something to do with why the BMW makes over 100 more horsepower...

Something to add to the discussion is the F80 also weighs 400 pounds more than the ITS. It’s not an insignificant amount of weight.

BMW pisses me off these days though. I entirely agree the F80 is a sexy car but I don’t have the courage to buy a BMW without warranty. I personally considered the current M3 but look what they’ve done to my boy. That’s a face that only a mother could love. And for that I’ve grown to despise modern BMW and their outlandish design language being implemented across their lineup. Acting like smug dicks about it and saying their cars aren’t meant for everyone was the final nail in the coffin for me.

I missed out on the F80 because I wasn’t yet in the financial state to be able to afford one comfortably, and now that I can, the G80 makes me want to spend my money elsewhere. The unfortunate shifting and clutch experience also leaves much to be desired. I’m at a point in my life where I no longer enjoy modding cars and prefer to just buy something that I enjoy right out of the box. Wheels and tires are just about the only exception that I’ll still do, but I don’t even like lowering cars anymore, as the underbody scrapes really annoy me. (I also don’t consider protective stuff like ppf, ceramic coating, or tint as mods. Those are mandatory.)

 

[optronix]

Something to add to the discussion is the F80 also weighs 400 pounds more than the ITS. It’s not an insignificant amount of weight.

BMW pisses me off these days though. I entirely agree the F80 is a sexy car but I don’t have the courage to buy a BMW without warranty. I personally considered the current M3 but look what they’ve done to my boy. That’s a face that only a mother could love. And for that I’ve grown to despise modern BMW and their outlandish design language being implemented across their lineup. Acting like smug dicks about it and saying their cars aren’t meant for everyone was the final nail in the coffin for me.

I missed out on the F80 because I wasn’t yet in the financial state to be able to afford one comfortably, and now that I can, the G80 makes me want to spend my money elsewhere. The unfortunate shifting and clutch experience also leaves much to be desired. I’m at a point in my life where I no longer enjoy modding cars and prefer to just buy something that I enjoy right out of the box. Wheels and tires are just about the only exception that I’ll still do, but I don’t even like lowering cars anymore, as the underbody scrapes really annoy me. (I also don’t consider protective stuff like ppf, ceramic coating, or tint as mods. Those are mandatory.)

I actually 100% agree. I've stuck up for BMW for far too long, and then they go and do this:



Seriously, watching that video finally is what did it for me. The current executives at BMW are clowns, and I don't see them coming back to a place where I'd want to buy a new BMW. I hope they prove me wrong.

I almost considered the G80, as I think it does genuinely look good in dark colors and I'm sure it's amazing to drive, but it's too big and too expensive. The M3 comp is nearly 911 money now, and to hell with that. The CS is lol.

But back to the F80- it is still a big car but dimensions-wise it's still tolerable especially in the cabin, where it doesn't feel big. And the power and suspension engineering more than makes up for it. IMO it still maintains the emotional connection to the "old" BMW that I've always loved, so yeah it's still in the running.

Overall I do still think I'd rather have the Integra, but playing this game with dealers and availability is really turning me off right now. That said, I can't find a good M3 to go check out either... as I mentioned I have yet to drive an F8x with a manual, the test drive will likely make or break what direction I end up going- assuming I can find a car I like in the first place!

 

[NOTLGUY]

I actually 100% agree. I've stuck up for BMW for far too long, and then they go and do this:



Seriously, watching that video finally is what did it for me. The current executives at BMW are clowns, and I don't see them coming back to a place where I'd want to buy a new BMW. I hope they prove me wrong.

I almost considered the G80, as I think it does genuinely look good in dark colors and I'm sure it's amazing to drive, but it's too big and too expensive. The M3 comp is nearly 911 money now, and to hell with that. The CS is lol.

But back to the F80- it is still a big car but dimensions-wise it's still tolerable especially in the cabin, where it doesn't feel big. And the power and suspension engineering more than makes up for it. IMO it still maintains the emotional connection to the "old" BMW that I've always loved, so yeah it's still in the running.

Overall I do still think I'd rather have the Integra, but playing this game with dealers and availability is really turning me off right now. That said, I can't find a good M3 to go check out either... as I mentioned I have yet to drive an F8x with a manual, the test drive will likely make or break what direction I end up going- assuming I can find a car I like in the first place!

I see you’re spending some time considering the F80. Thought I’d chime in for a minute, since I owned a gorgeous 6MT F80, Laguna Seca blue over silverstone. Damn it was a good looking car. MPE was insane on cold starts.

I would describe that car as pure theatre. Speed, noise, looks, pretty seats, illuminated shifter, etc. Almost so pretty that it’s worth building just right and then tucking away.

ITS is just a way better new daily beater. Truth is the F80 has garbage clutch feel and the EPS flat out kills a lot of the experience for me. But man is the F80 ever pretty and fast. I could see it becoming an event to drive someday based just on looks and speed.

 

[DukeFrisbee]

I have trouble coming around to the notion that I'd ever cross-shop the two. The ITS to me is a capable, practical daily that's fun to drive and would likely hold its own at a local road coarse event or even autocross if you just wanted to have a little non-competitive weekend fun - not to mention brand new and with a warranty.

I haven't owned an F80 but did own E46's and a couple E90's as well as an X5 and the fact that I can adjust wastegates, replace water pumps/thermostats, replace almost any gasket and even have the tools to walnut blast valves without a manual or online guide leads me to think that the only way I'd consider an F80 would be finding a single-owner, <25,000 mile Bring-A-Trailer cremepuff which, by definition would command a price much more than I would ever want to pay. Such a car would make a great weekend, track or project car, just not the role I'm looking to fill with the ITS.

 

[optronix]

I like the dialogue in this thread. I like the people on this board. I think the people the Type S draws to it are my people.

That said, I am still considering an F80, but I agree that the Type S would almost surely be a better daily. Thing is, I don't really need a daily... I just need a car (with a manual transmission) that I could drive every day and I can get my dog in and out of super easy. But it also has to be excellent on a back road and able to survive and be moderately competitive in light-moderate track use.

Both cars (and not much else...) seem to fill this nuanced role quite well. I would disregard the M3 on price because it's the same or more as the Integra for a 6 year old car at this point... but the engineering that went into the M3 keeps me thinking about it- and it's still coming in at half what I paid for my 718, which I will be moving on from for now so cost isn't so much an issue. And I'm still wondering if I'll miss the rear-wheel drive "rotation" that is a signature of M cars and I remember was an absolute blast in my F82... and the power of the Integra will be a big step down from what I'm used to but not so in the M3...

But end of the day the only reason I started thinking about the M3 is just this insufferable waiting around while these Integras are slowly divvied out. There's no question the inputs will be better in the Integra, the tech will be better, and having a new car is always a good time. But I really am over waiting around for cars; it was about a 14 month ordeal for my 718 and I told myself I'd never do anything like that again.

But really the only way I'd let myself get an M3, like Duke said above, is if the perfect specimen showed up for a tolerable "deal". I already know I'd want the competition package but low miles, unmolested with aftermarket parts and 1 owner are also highly preferable, and those cars are already spiking into the mid-upper $60k range, and are actually hard to find. And seem to go quickly when you do find one!

So really it may come down to chance. If the right M3 comes along, I'll probably get it. If my dealer's estimate of getting an allocation next month comes to fruition before I can find one that works for me, then I'll get the Acura. They're both awesome cars that fit my needs.

 

[VarmintCong]

Yeah objectively the Giulia makes sense. I just can’t trust them. I’ve personally seen two break during track events. Enough for me to pass.

Also no manual.

also few dealerships, it’s an hour drive in traffic to an Alfa dealership in Boston. I’d consider one otherwise.

The F8x manuals are not bad, but they do have the typical BMW rubberiness to them. If you've driven and E46 or E90 manual, it's roughly the same. Not bad, but nothing to write home about either.

I loved the BMW manuals in my E46 and E36. They don’t like to be rushed but very satisfying feel. VW manuals are crap in comparison. Also hated our (1st gen) WrX manual. Feels like you’re rowing a box of bolts.

 

[VarmintCong]

I like driving a car without worrying if something might break down the road and the costs related to it. I mean, the ITS will already come with the Acura tax for parts and labor. Then again, I was never going to get any german cars based purely on those points.

I owned two BMW for 15 years, stuff rarely breaks, it’s rather you take it to your shop once a year and get hit over the head with all the stuff that needs replacing.

What keeps me from buying another one is the non M cars drive so boring now, and the M cars are too overpowered and heavy for daily driving. I’d only get one if I was still doing the occasional track day, or if I lived in a place with amazing roads like Switzerland or Germany.

The lightness and nice feedback of the Civic platform makes them fun to drive even in normal driving. BMWs really come alive on track, and once you experience that it’s frustrating to drive it around on US streets where they feel kind of numb.

 

[VarmintCong]

I like the dialogue in this thread. I like the people on this board. I think the people the Type S draws to it are my people.

That said, I am still considering an F80, but I agree that the Type S would almost surely be a better daily. Thing is, I don't really need a daily... I just need a car (with a manual transmission) that I could drive every day and I can get my dog in and out of super easy. But it also has to be excellent on a back road and able to survive and be moderately competitive in light-moderate track use.

Both cars (and not much else...) seem to fill this nuanced role quite well. I would disregard the M3 on price because it's the same or more as the Integra for a 6 year old car at this point... but the engineering that went into the M3 keeps me thinking about it- and it's still coming in at half what I paid for my 718, which I will be moving on from for now so cost isn't so much an issue. And I'm still wondering if I'll miss the rear-wheel drive "rotation" that is a signature of M cars and I remember was an absolute blast in my F82... and the power of the Integra will be a big step down from what I'm used to but not so in the M3...

But end of the day the only reason I started thinking about the M3 is just this insufferable waiting around while these Integras are slowly divvied out. There's no question the inputs will be better in the Integra, the tech will be better, and having a new car is always a good time. But I really am over waiting around for cars; it was about a 14 month ordeal for my 718 and I told myself I'd never do anything like that again.

But really the only way I'd let myself get an M3, like Duke said above, is if the perfect specimen showed up for a tolerable "deal". I already know I'd want the competition package but low miles, unmolested with aftermarket parts and 1 owner are also highly preferable, and those cars are already spiking into the mid-upper $60k range, and are actually hard to find. And seem to go quickly when you do find one!

So really it may come down to chance. If the right M3 comes along, I'll probably get it. If my dealer's estimate of getting an allocation next month comes to fruition before I can find one that works for me, then I'll get the Acura. They're both awesome cars that fit my needs.

Sorry, but if you love the ITS, you’d be crazy to buy someone’s 5 year old beat on M car. 5-6 years is when they start to go through parts like a meat grinder.

I’d only buy a 5+ year old M car as a second car or track car.

 

[ghost13]

The Alfa brand has had an uphill battle, no doubt. The 20/21 model years really improved on reliability though.

I am tempted to purchase a used Giulia Veloce for $40k with less than 15k miles while I wait for my ITS in Q1 next year. Reading through the Giulia forums and on Reddit, I am hearing the model years from 2020 onwards are fairly reliable. Only caveats are my metro area of ATL has only two dealers and I do not know how long Alfa can keep itself in the USA.

 

[Lflouie]

I am tempted to purchase a used Giulia Veloce for $40k with less than 15k miles while I wait for my ITS in Q1 next year. Reading through the Giulia forums and on Reddit, I am hearing the model years from 2020 onwards are fairly reliable. Only caveats are my metro area of ATL has only two dealers and I do not know how long Alfa can keep itself in the USA.

I own a 2021 Alfa Giulia QV and have had zero problems. The regular Giulias are very nice drivers and 2020 or later is the upgraded version. There are several versions to choose from and you can get a nice later model for $35 - 40k.

Alfa is releasing a few new models and lower volume higher priced cars seems to be the direction many auto mfrs are going...focusing on margin vs sales volume.

The fit and finish will spoil you vs Acura, but the infotainment is a an older gen. Handling is very good and it is more comfortable than ITS.

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