ITS vs F80 M3

[optronix]

I'm not known for patience, so as I continue to wait for a car to materialize I've started taking a second look at some other options.

One that I do sort of keep coming back to is the F80 M3. Personally I'm not cross-shopping the ITS with 2 door coupes or auto luxo-barge appliances. I have a very specific set of requirements that are basic yet also hard to find in today's market:

- 4-door
- manual transmission
- great inputs (i.e., "fun to drive")
- track capable

The ITS obviously fills all of these, and for purposes of this conversation I'll go so far as to consider the ITS and the CTR equally. There's a whole other thread to talk about that.

The F80 M3 stands out for me though because of the price point. Availability is tough, but you can find a pre-LCI M3 for around $50k. Far less if you can stand a few more miles and questionable dealerships. The post-LCI with Competition package (2018+ I think...) is what I'd want but those are almost like hen's teeth and are fetching north of $60k... but really there's just a handful of improvements in those cars so it isn't imperative. I'd probably be modding this thing anyway.

Pros for the M3:
- faster
- rear wheel drive
- arguably just-as-good-looking
- as close to a "reliable BMW" as you'll find
- proven track capability

pros for the ITS:
- new car/warranty
- better inputs, especially shifter and probably steering

That's really all I've got!

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[eculley]

The F80 M3 is one of the best looking sedans to ever have been made. With that being said, the S55 is not my favorite. I owned a 21 M2 Comp for a year or so and really really hated the sound it produced. The aftermarket support is great though and you can definitely cover up the sound by doing some down/mid pipe work.

I'd suggest looking into Giulia QVs as well. You can find a 20/21 model year for high 50s/low 60s.

Some pros and cons from my experience (if my two cents matters):

Pros
- F80 has outstanding aftermarket support.
- F80 is faster and is rear wheel drive.
- F80 looks incredible with it's wide stance.
- F80 is still a 3 series and can be used daily without many drawbacks.
- F80 can make insane power with the right wrench work.
- Simply, well-made interior.

Cons
- Not that this matters a lot, but driving the F80, you'll be in with some esteemed company of ridiculous drivers. The generalization of BMW drivers is well deserved.
- Questionable reliability. Even the S55 has it's issues and the maintenance cost can catch up to you.
- Terrible steering feedback.
- If the F80 is manual, the shifter is as rubbery as the steering.

 

[optronix]

The F80 M3 is one of the best looking sedans to ever have been made. With that being said, the S55 is not my favorite. I owned a 21 M2 Comp for a year or so and really really hated the sound it produced. The aftermarket support is great though and you can definitely cover up the sound by doing some down/mid pipe work.

I'd suggest looking into Giulia QVs as well. You can find a 20/21 model year for high 50s/low 60s.

Yeah objectively the Giulia makes sense. I just can’t trust them. I’ve personally seen two break during track events. Enough for me to pass.

Also no manual.

 

[eculley]

Yeah objectively the Giulia makes sense. I just can’t trust them. I’ve personally seen two break during track events. Enough for me to pass.

Also no manual.

The Alfa brand has had an uphill battle, no doubt. The 20/21 model years really improved on reliability though.

 

[Ilyam5]

Manual sedans are tough to find
ct4 v
golf r

are your only options

 

[MickleNoot]

I was in the same boat as you, cross-shoping the ITS with Fxx M3s and M2s, specifically Competition Pack examples. I ruled out the M2 due to the lack truly usable back seats, but the M3 was tougher to let go. It ultimately came down to the fact that at MSRP for the ITS, I couldn't find any comp-equipped cars that were both clean enough and had <20k miles for anything under ~$65k.

As others have mentioned, the F80 M3 is arguably one of the best looking sport sedans of the past couple decades, particularly from the rear where you really notice the pronounced fenders. They are phenomenal driver's cars, and, as you mentioned, can be reasonably reliable.

However, at the end of the day, it was still going to cost me at least ~$10k more to get a low-mileage, used Fxx M-car, vs a brand new ITS with full factory warranty. Having driven the three cars mentioned, I think it really comes down to personal preference. I prefer lighter, communicative inputs, and BMW tunes their steering to be fairly heavy (the shifter feel is arguably objectively worse, though). The ITS has a better ride, although the M-cars seem to be a bit quieter (subjectively, I've never done dB testing).

My wife and I are also a bit weird in that we are somewhat turned off by "badge prestige", and the BMW driver reputation will follow you, regardless of how you, personally, drive. People will block you from merging, ride literally up your butthole, and just generally be more rude to you on the road in the M2/M3. As messed up as it is, cars dehumanize us when we're on the road, and people will perceive you differently, especially in BMW performance products. Those considerations are at least what makes my wife prefer the Integra, although she does think the M2 is "cute". I personally will drive whatever I want if all my boxes are checked, regardless of brand, and the ITS just happens to check all those boxes and then some.

That's really my long-winded way to say you really can't go wrong with either of these cars. The ITS is objectively more practical and economical, and subjectively has better inputs. The M3 is objectively faster (though lap times are likely similar), may slightly edge out the ITS in looks depending on who you ask, and carries the weight of a more prestigious badge (also, good or bad depending on who you ask). If you can find an F80 M3 comp with super low miles for around the ITS' MSRP, that'll be a very tough decision.

 

[Tw1stedlog1k]

Just here to parrot a lot of what's already been said. However if you're planning to mod, a lot of the common complaints about the F8x's faults are remedied and the aftermarket offers a fairly extensive selection of options.

One thing I've come to realize with this platform is that it is excessively (almost frustratingly so) capable for street use. A big factor for considering the ITS over the M3 would be that you'll be able to enjoy and engage it more regularly during normal driving whereas the M3 will have more of a "rabid dog on a leash" attitude to it.

Common issues with the F8x to consider:
Plastic charge pipes that WILL fail - though fairly inexpensive, you'll inevitably have to upgrade these.
Radio buttons that produce hairline cracks over time.
Wheel hop in lower gears - stiffening and reinforcing the differential mounts would resolve this.
Clutch and shifter combo is unfitting for a performance oriented car - the aftermarket has a great, but overall pricey, solution for this. Although it will never be Honda smooth.
The big one; spun crank hub. My personal opinion on this is that it is not an issue until you start pushing over a stage 1 tune. There are incidents of it happening to stock cars and mostly to the DCT equipped ones. The consensus seems to point to aggressive kickdowns (downshifts) as the culprit but there's no solid evidence, just theories.
Carbon fiber roof equipped cars, keep an eye out for delamination

 

[VtecKickedInYo]

I have extensive experience with BMWs and currently own a f87 M2 and a F97 x3m alongside a c63s amg coupe. My main reason to get an integra type s is because ive never owned a manual car nor a fwd one so i wanted to experience something different. The s55 is a really stout engine with proper maintenance and care but sound wise i dont like it. Thats why i opted for a m2 with the n55. However the tuning potential of the s55 is extensive with certain kits pushing 1000hp
I also track my cars 10-14 times a year so i alternate between my m2 and c63s, once i get the ITS i will include it in the rotation as well. If you can get past the way the m3 sounds or are willing to spend a few grand on equal length midpipes and full catback it can definitely sound great. In the end both are great choices but depends on what character in the car you are looking for !

 

[optronix]

Wow, really good responses. It really shouldn't come as a surprise that the ITS draws the same type of enthusiast as the M3 would.

I should also mention that I've had an F82 M4 in the past so there is at least some significant context I have that's worth mentioning. Had a 2015 M4 DCT for almost 3 years before I got bit by the P car bug. I'm honestly not real sure why I didn't consider the F80 more strongly before the past few days, there really does seem to be some heavy overlap with these cars.

I think one of the key observations is that the F8x platform is a bit much on the street. I definitely concur with that statement, and it's a huge reason I bailed on my lease for the M4 early and drove literally halfway across the country for a 981 Boxster GTS. At least with the DCT, I never felt like I was extracting anywhere near the potential of the car on the street- but oh my god did it come alive on the track. If it weren't for the brakes nearly melting I'd say it was the best time I've had at the track in my life. I also spent a good amount of time on track in the F8x during a BMW Performance Center visit circa 2016. So it definitely did feel held back when required to do pedestrian tasks like... be a car. Did them quite well but it was frustrating knowing that it had that capability and I couldn't use it.

The thing is, the same can be said of my 718. It's just as fast as the M4, if not faster. But the "elite" driving dynamics are a bit more easily noticeable during normal operation than the M4, which makes it more "fun". My 718 has a PDK as well.

The thing I still can't quite reconcile though is I've never driven an F8x with a manual. I've always wondered if I would have skipped the DCT experiment I tried at the time I bought the M4 if I would have ended up keeping it longer, primarily because it would have been more engaging on the street... I know it's not as good of a manual as Honda/Acura are capable of, but I also had an E36 M3 manual as well as an e92 335i... neither of those I felt were "terrible" manual transmissions. Am I to expect the M3 to be pretty much more of the same as far as the "typical" BMW transmission I got used to in the M3/335i?

Assuming that's the case, it really has got me thinking really strongly on this. I might want to go test drive one this week, in fact.

 

[MickleNoot]

The thing I still can't quite reconcile though is I've never driven an F8x with a manual. I've always wondered if I would have skipped the DCT experiment I tried at the time I bought the M4 if I would have ended up keeping it longer, primarily because it would have been more engaging on the street... I know it's not as good of a manual as Honda/Acura are capable of, but I also had an E36 M3 manual as well as an e92 335i... neither of those I felt were "terrible" manual transmissions. Am I to expect the M3 to be pretty much more of the same as far as the "typical" BMW transmission I got used to in the M3/335i?

The F8x manuals are not bad, but they do have the typical BMW rubberiness to them. If you've driven and E46 or E90 manual, it's roughly the same. Not bad, but nothing to write home about either.

 

[Negitoro7]

I’ve driven Honda manuals for most of my life, but I did have an F87 M2 DCT, which I miss dearly, mostly for its N55 sound and for its RWD. IMO, the steering feel was noticeably worse than my TSX, and even worse than my VWs. I test-drove a manual M2 before getting it in DCT and was incredibly disappointed with all aspects of the manual experience in that car compared to Hondas: rubbery long throws, vague and high clutch grab point, inability to turn off auto rev-matching unless turning off all stability/traction assist.

A part of me is tempted to skip the ITS and save up (a lot longer) for a G80 M3 or G87 M2 but it would have to be automatic because of their underwhelming manuals.

I also agree with others that the S55 engine in the M2C and F80 M3 sound terrible compared to the N55 (and my friend’s RS3 5-cylinder). I think I’d rather hear the ITS’ subtle burbles and pops in an inoffensive 4-cylinder package than listen to an S55 in-line 6.

 

[optronix]

Oddly the sound never really bothered me in the F82.

 

[Tw1stedlog1k]

I advocate for the trifecta of shifting mods every chance I get; AutoSolutions SSK, Ultimate Clutch Pedal, CDV delete. Those 3 items alone make a marked improvement over stock. I swapped cars with a CS owner for a few hours and his biggest feedback was that the shifting setup on my car greatly improved the driving experience.

Will it be enough to single-handedly sway your decision? I can't answer that for you but I can say it has definitely reinforced my own decision to keep the car long term and add an ITS to the stable instead of choosing one over the other.

 

[ZeroGSR]

In a perfect world I would get the F80 hands down. Yes there are aspects of the ITS that are better, but come on, it's an M3. But in reality, we are comparing a 5 year old German car to a brand new Acura. It will be a gamble, we all know people with M3s that lasted 20 years and we all knew people with M3s constantly in the shop with insane repair bills.

From my limited research, BMW won't CPO the F80 because it's 5+ years old. and the extended warranties are NOT transferable through a 3rd party dealer. Which means, the only possible way to get an F80 with any sort of 1st party warranty is find a private owner who can transfer it. That combined with wanting a manual, that's a needle in a haystack and the owner will likely know what they have and price accordingly.

Don't get me wrong, if you are willing to take that gamble, go for it, statistically it's probably fine. As for the Alfa, statistically, you will NOT be fine, fantastic car, but LOL, hope it's not your daily.

 

[sfedai0]

I like driving a car without worrying if something might break down the road and the costs related to it. I mean, the ITS will already come with the Acura tax for parts and labor. Then again, I was never going to get any german cars based purely on those points.

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