Trading Up? Lateral Move? Trading Down? ITS for CTR

[nerfrevolver]

I'd go for the white CTR if I was offered it for MSRP. Especially from a black ITS, I don't like the black hiding the black bumper trims on the ITS which look phenomenal.

 

[TomK]

I just wanted to thank everyone for sharing their thoughts and let you all know I traded the ITS for the FL5.

After a little more negotiating, my total hit ended up being $2,900, and I even learned I can recoup the difference in sales tax from the state + interest (very nice surprise, Ohio!). Given the similarities between the cars, it was a very tough decision, but I ultimately felt I'd have an easier time getting ahold of another ITS at MSRP if I'd ever want to switch back and that I was unlikely to come across another new FL5 at MSRP in my ideal color.

Couple weeks later, what are your thoughts?

 

[RUNN1N]

Couple weeks later, what are your thoughts?

So I'm 23 days in, and I'm honestly really glad I made the change.

• Black was going to be a nuisance to keep clean. I thought I could do it. I truly love the look of a black car. I underestimated my level of OCD at this stage, and upkeep wasn't going to be much fun.
• The suspension is slightly harsher, but I don't notice much of a difference aside from a few rougher areas in my commute. I use Individual mode almost exclusively (+R gauges, +R throttle, Sport steering, Comfort suspension), and it's really nice that it'll automatically return to Individual when I start the car. It's a shame no Integra will do it, and I can't fathom why that is. I'll probably invest in an ITS ADS module (~$220) once I have more miles on the car to determine whether it's actually necessary.
• NVH is very similar, in my opinion. I know there's ~30lb of extra sound deadening in the ITS, but it's not something I feel like I'm missing. I often drive with windows down and/or music on--maybe something I'll be able to better evaluate when it turns cold.
• The exhausts are much different between the two cars. The burbles and pops in the ITS were neat, but I found myself having to really listen for them if the windows were up and if the stereo was really going, no chance was I going to hear them. So were they for me? Or for everyone outside the car? The consensus seems to be the OEM CTR exhaust is horrible and the ITS exhaust is a masterpiece... but I find myself wondering what we really expect to hear when we're working with a turbocharged four cylinder.
• I miss the HUD more than I expected--the +R gauges show the gear front and center with the speed much smaller in the top right. It's easy to exceed the speed limit in both of these cars, and easier to do it without realizing it in the CTR.
• I think the Bose and ELS sound systems are too similar to tell apart. I'm no audiophile, but I'd be curious to see if most people could tell the difference.
• The CTR seats are just too good. We'll see how the material ages with daily use, and I'm curious to find out if I ultimately miss heated seats, but the CTR seats hold me in all the right ways. I found a company that makes a red seat cover for the rear bench which remedies the mismatch from front to back (personal issue, noted OCD from before).
• I do think the build quality of my CTR is noticeably higher than my ITS, and I want to be clear that I'm speaking only for the particular ones I own(ed). I had a interior few buzzes and rattles in my ITS that got under my skin, and had no such buzzes/sounds in my A-Spec + Tech. I could've had the dealership try to remedy them, but I didn't necessarily want the dealership's employees doing exploratory surgery that might lead to something worse. If anything, these sounds lead me to drive considerably softer in the ITS, which is a shame.

I know there are a few of us that moved from the A-Spec + Tech to the ITS, but personally, it was a move that might've soured me on the ITS a little (in hindsight, at least). The two cars are virtually identical inside (save for a few Type-S brandings and a different wheel/shift knob), but I found myself getting a little irritated about the handful of features the ITS loses from the Tech package (memory seats, sunroof, etc). The ITS is being called a "CTR for grownups"... but it never quite felt like a CTR to me. I think having owned the A-Spec + Tech for a year, the ITS just felt like I traded a handful of features for a bigger engine and more aggressive body styling.

Both cars are capable of driving too fast (especially for my needs)... but the CTR is fun because it's not trying to be much other than a car built to drive way too fast, and that's really fun to me.

 

[Rdrcr]

^^^^
Good to know. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and comparisons between the cars.

I’m almost sure I have secured a CTR allocation for MSRP with a projected ETA in February. And, it’s taken a bunch of work, lol.

Mike

 

[nix6speed]

@RUNN1N - that's a better comparison than most of the auto reviewers. Agree with the ending assessment of an ITS being a high performance decontented version of the A-Spec rather than an adult CTR.

I get that Honda/Acura want these to be more differentiated than say a BRZ/GR86 but unfortunately for the consumers the mismatched features don't make sense.

 

[optronix]

@RUNN1N - that's a better comparison than most of the auto reviewers. Agree with the ending assessment of an ITS being a high performance decontented version of the A-Spec rather than an adult CTR.

I get that Honda/Acura want these to be more differentiated than say a BRZ/GR86 but unfortunately for the consumers the mismatched features don't make sense.

Nah, it makes perfect sense for the people this car is designed for. All the gripes people have with it are inconsequential to the use it receives. There are better options for those who think lack of rear usb chargers, memory seats, or a sunroof are a big deal- you won’t get that argument from me.

The differentiation comes down to styling, and brand prestige. Pretty much simple as that.

Another way to look at it, is if you are more excited about the fact it says Type R on the back than you are disturbed that it says Civic on the back, the FL5 is probably for you.

In all other situations the Integra is the better choice.

But maybe that’s just me. Before I got this car I told myself I’d be happy with either. Now owning the Integra for a month I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment.

 

[ABPDE5]

Congrats on the FL5! Awesome car. I would have been happy with either, and I'd probably have bought a CTR long before the ITS was available if ADMs hadn't been so ridiculous.

That said, I really don't understand this sentiment that "the ITS is trying harder to be something more than the FL5 is (trying to be something)."

I just don't think that's the case. It's a CTR, with different exterior / interior styling. It doesn't come with LogR, and the CTR seats hold you better in the corners, but the ITS technically has a slightly stiffer chassis and has a more aggressive tune. The common refrain is the CTR is more "track ready", but mechanically, that's not the case; you could just as easily make the argument that the ITS is a better track platform (thanks to the chassis and the tune) as you could that the CTR is (seats, LogR). Personally, I think it's essentially a draw.

If anything, the fact that it doesn't come with full Acura Link, memory front seats, moonroof, rear vents / usb, and a third rear seat is an acknowledgment that it's more CTR than it is Integra A-spec.

It's just a CTR in different clothing, and I don't think it's pretending to be anything else. I certainly don't think of it as anything more. The price difference is an acknowledgment of the real market for the FL5 and an additional 12 months of inflation.

 

[RUNN1N]

@Rdrcr I hope you'll be able to take your pick of either one at MSRP, and maybe even have the chance to look at them back to back/side by side. Both are cars best appreciated in person. MSRP on the ITS should be fixed until mid-2024 (hopefully), but I'm curious to see what Honda will do with MSRP on the '24 CTR. I think @ABPDE5 alluded to it, but I think the price of the ITS combined with continued average markups on the CTR ~$10,000 could foreshadow a (possibly big) bump by Honda on the CTR price for the '24 model year. Consumers won't like it (but would probably still buy it) and dealerships may still try to apply ADM (and some consumers would probably still buy it with ADM). I'm curious to see what happens, but sounds like the kind of opportunity a manufacturer would cash in on.

As for the BRZ/GR86 comparison raised by @nix6speed , I think Honda did a better job of drawing a line between these cars... the price difference alone is a big one ($700 difference with Subaru/Toyota vs $7,000 CTR/ITS), then there are a handful of feature differences (probably more than BRZ vs GR86). There's a market for the CTR and the ITS, and while there's some overlap (me, at least), I think they were built with different consumers in mind. I think the line between A-Spec + Tech and ITS is a little blurrier, personally, and they could've avoided that by keeping more features the same between the two and building on for the ITS.

As for brand prestige and styling or what the car's named... I think we're a little more discerning than the average consumer around here, and we all realize whether it's an ITS or a CTR, we're just dealing with high-powered/expensive Civics by different names. Am I right, @optronix ? A regular driver stuck behind us in traffic may not know the difference and think one is substantially "better" than the other, but none of us should be buying a car in the $50k price range for the person in a Forte or Sienna in the other lane. Speaking for myself, I see an RDX and think "pricey CR-V" or MDX and think "fancy Pilot". The name on the package doesn't mean much (to me, at least) when the contents are effectively the same.

They're both overstyled (pleasantly, in my opinion), and as for tuning and chassis stiffness as brought up by @ABPDE5, I totally understand there are differences... but for those of us daily these, we'll probably feel no difference at all between the two. Most of life happens at ~30mph, or stuck behind a SUV or van. I'm averaging a speed of 22mph, which is up 10% from my A-Spec + Tech.

In my personal search, one thing I found concerning was the handful of current and former Honda Marysville associates I asked said they'd buy a CTR from Japan or a Si from Canada before they'd buy anything from Marysville. Obviously, these are all people I know, it wasn't a huge group, and they all bring their own biases though I'd say all are "Honda fans"... but it was weird that they were effectively unanimous in saying they wouldn't buy from Marysville, at least not right now. For what it's worth, two also mentioned the England plant where the FK8 was built once had such low quality that they were limited to only making floors (I haven't researched this myself).

 

[Rdrcr]

^^^^^
It’s ironic you mention it, but yes, when I saw both the CTR and ITS in person, side by side, that’s when I realized I preferred the CTR, even with its silly wing.

It’s certainly possible Honda could raise the MSRP of the CTR. I don’t believe they will, I could be wrong. Either way, at MSRP, I’ll be moving forward. That said, I did pass on my ITS allocation at MSRP + $681 (dealer protection package).

I’d be extremely happy with either car and with the automotive market and lending situation continuing to evolve, the chances of finding either vehicle for MSRP are increasing for 2024.

Mike

 

[Azkyrie6]

They're both overstyled (pleasantly, in my opinion), and as for tuning and chassis stiffness as brought up by @ABPDE5, I totally understand there are differences... but for those of us daily these, we'll probably feel no difference at all between the two. Most of life happens at ~30mph, or stuck behind a SUV or van. I'm averaging a speed of 22mph, which is up 10% from my A-Spec + Tech.

In my personal search, one thing I found concerning was the handful of current and former Honda Marysville associates I asked said they'd buy a CTR from Japan or a Si from Canada before they'd buy anything from Marysville. Obviously, these are all people I know, it wasn't a huge group, and they all bring their own biases though I'd say all are "Honda fans"... but it was weird that they were effectively unanimous in saying they wouldn't buy from Marysville, at least not right now. For what it's worth, two also mentioned the England plant where the FK8 was built once had such low quality that they were limited to only making floors (I haven't researched this myself).

CTR and ITS are both styled amazingly. Very different looks yet both distinctive and attractive in their own way. There are enough differences externally and internally that it’s difficult to say a driver gets best of both worlds by picking one. ITS drivers might add something they like from FL5 and vice versa like the Integra exhaust and ADS.

the Marysville associates preference thing could be one of those “I don’t dine out to eat where I work” thing. People that work at marysville may know things about how they produce cars and don’t like it. Could also be thinking Japanese assembled vehicles is more alluring. People who work in other countries may prefer to buy a product they feel has higher quality being produced in a foreign country.

this is all conjecture of course. Grass can seem greener on the other side. Only thing I’d say is Acura has issues painting bumper and metallic finish paint matching

 

[ABPDE5]

As for brand prestige and styling or what the car's named... I think we're a little more discerning than the average consumer around here, and we all realize whether it's an ITS or a CTR, we're just dealing with high-powered/expensive Civics by different names...

...They're both overstyled (pleasantly, in my opinion), and as for tuning and chassis stiffness as brought up by @ABPDE5, I totally understand there are differences... but for those of us daily these, we'll probably feel no difference at all between the two. Most of life happens at ~30mph, or stuck behind a SUV or van. I'm averaging a speed of 22mph, which is up 10% from my A-Spec + Tech.

Yep! Completely agree. That was my point: both cars are more or less the same, albeit with a different appearance.

I guess I never thought either was trying not to be just that, so I've been surprised so many feel otherwise.

 

[ABPDE5]

CTR and ITS are both styled amazingly. Very different looks yet both distinctive and attractive in their own way. There are enough differences externally and internally that it’s difficult to say a driver gets best of both worlds by picking one. ITS drivers might add something they like from FL5 and vice versa like the Integra exhaust and ADS.

the Marysville associates preference thing could be one of those “I don’t dine out to eat where I work” thing. People that work at marysville may know things about how they produce cars and don’t like it. Could also be thinking Japanese assembled vehicles is more alluring. People who work in other countries may prefer to buy a product they feel has higher quality being produced in a foreign country.

this is all conjecture of course. Grass can seem greener on the other side. Only thing I’d say is Acura has issues painting bumper and metallic finish paint matching

Really glad we get the ability to mix and match between ADS, ASC, interior accessories, power train, suspension, etc. Extra flexibility is only a good thing, and it's going to make this platform really fun.

Agree on the Marysville point, too. We've all seen the worst in where we work / live.

 

[crepr12]

Both are niche vehicles with a limited number of buyers..Once met the prices will fall...jmho

 

[optronix]

It's just a CTR in different clothing, and I don't think it's pretending to be anything else. I certainly don't think of it as anything more. The price difference is an acknowledgment of the real market for the FL5 and an additional 12 months of inflation.

Don't forget the extra year of warranty, and Acura service experience. So far it seems everybody forgets that component, but it's important. Sure, Acura service isn't Porsche service, but it's better than Honda, I can already tell you that...

@Rdrcr

As for brand prestige and styling or what the car's named... I think we're a little more discerning than the average consumer around here, and we all realize whether it's an ITS or a CTR, we're just dealing with high-powered/expensive Civics by different names. Am I right, @optronix ? A regular driver stuck behind us in traffic may not know the difference and think one is substantially "better" than the other, but none of us should be buying a car in the $50k price range for the person in a Forte or Sienna in the other lane. Speaking for myself, I see an RDX and think "pricey CR-V" or MDX and think "fancy Pilot". The name on the package doesn't mean much (to me, at least) when the contents are effectively the same.

No, not exactly. Keep in mind we're just talking individual opinions and philosophies here, I know my take is not universal and at least in this case I respect most opposing viewpoints- but I could give two shits about what random people on the street think. But I do care about what my wife thinks. She didn't like the idea of me paying $50k for a Civic, AT ALL. But she was excited about the Integra. There's a lot of nuance to that I don't necessarily feel like getting into, but my point had nothing to do with what random people think when they see the car, and everything to do with the psychosis involved in justifying cost vs worth when considering a major purchase- especially a car purchase from an enthusiast mindset, where our literal identity can easily be tied up with what car we choose to drive. Again, we're talking thesis paper levels of nuance, maybe I'm articulating it effectively, probably I'm not.

Another way to look at it, and actually another point entirely, is some folks on the level of "enthusiast" that are the primary demographic for this car have an elevated attraction to the magic and mysticism of the "Type R" badge. At least 95% of the people posting here should know what I'm talking about- anyone who was into Japanese cars in North America and lived through the late 90s/early 00s probably gets "the fizz" as James May likes to call it when they see that badge- that strong sense of nostalgia because we all knew what that badge represented AND none of us could really have it (save for the select few who actually had an Integra Type R when they were new, which was less than 3000 last I counted...). You can definitely count me in that group. I loved those cars, and still do.

But the reality is now, for me the FL5 just isn't that same level of "special". It's not even the first type R in North America- the FK8 stole that thunder. But to others, it most definitely is that special- especially the substantial amount of Honda fanboys that spent 5 figures in markup for these cars!!!

I don't share the complete philosophy of John Naderi, but he's a very respected journalist and "voice of the enthusiast" that maps to my "Gen X" demographic, and actually makes a lot of sense in his take on the "modern" Type Rs. (For those who don't know, John Naderi is one of the major forces behind Super Street magazine, a legendary source of JDM fanboyism from the 90s). I agree that they don't fit the original "ethos" of those cars; and as a result they're far "less special" to me.

In my personal search, one thing I found concerning was the handful of current and former Honda Marysville associates I asked said they'd buy a CTR from Japan or a Si from Canada before they'd buy anything from Marysville. Obviously, these are all people I know, it wasn't a huge group, and they all bring their own biases though I'd say all are "Honda fans"... but it was weird that they were effectively unanimous in saying they wouldn't buy from Marysville, at least not right now. For what it's worth, two also mentioned the England plant where the FK8 was built once had such low quality that they were limited to only making floors (I haven't researched this myself).

I'll go ahead and pile on that it comes as zero surprise that people at Marysville have low opinions of the quality of content that comes out of Marysville. "You don't know what you don't know"... they probably know that shenanigans happen at their plant, and are unaware of what shenanigans happen at other plants...

But I do think it's been established at this point that the Swindon plant was a shit show.

 

[jrodtypeS]

Congrats on picking up the FL5 for MSRP. I picked up my White/ebony Type S a week ago for MSRP. I traded in my Red FK8 for it. Needed to get something a little more grown up looking. I tried getting an FL5. But here in New Orleans the cheapest I could find was 55k. I hoped the dealership I had purchased my FK8 would be able to get me one for MSRP. After reading this thread. I happen to check that dealership and they had a champion white FL5. But after looking at the sticker price it had 10k markup. Now I am completely satisfied with my purchase of my Type S at MSRP. As I see I still cannot get an FL5 in my area for MSRP. Congrats again on your pickup. For the price in this market it's a steal. For all of us that picked up the Type S or Type R for MSRP. Enjoy our rides!!!