ForeverCar’s ITS Journal

[ForeverCar]

Put the Michelin PS4S back on. As good as the DWS06+ is, the PS4S is a bit better as weather improves. Perhaps not surprising, steering feel improved and the traction limits are a bit higher.

Silly enough, the Michelin sidewall looks cooler too.

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[ForeverCar]

After some additional miles on the stock PS4S tires, I am a little surprised that the ride quality is harsher than the DWS06+.

We still get some cooler temperatures in the PNW and the DWS06+ works better in those conditions.

Great car with great tires equals enjoyable drive!

 

[Scrodee]

I've always been a car guy and I have had the good fortune to own and drive a lot of fun stuff (at least those models attainable to the everyman) but never really had the opportunity or fortitude to jump into the Porsche thing. At times, I'll cross-shop a Porsche with something else I'm interested in; and it seems like the other things I'm looking at are almost always cheaper, in some cases objectively better (though I understand, as this whole thread frequently circles back to, that subjective qualities are priceless), and easier to get. I think access is usually the primary challenge. Also, the model variations are pretty daunting, then you have the options, and it all gets very wearisome. This, coming from a guy who really likes to car shop, lol.

I guess my main question is, what's the best way to get into the Porsche thing without spending $100k on something that I feel like I may regret because I selected the 'wrong' options?
Are there some older 911 models that can be had that aren't money pits? (At least not much more than a normal enthusiast would expect...)

I'm not a track junky or anything like that, I just really enjoy a great road car and I know I'm missing out on some of that by not wading into the Porsche whirlpool.

 

[ABPDE5]

I've always been a car guy and I have had the good fortune to own and drive a lot of fun stuff (at least those models attainable to the everyman) but never really had the opportunity or fortitude to jump into the Porsche thing. At times, I'll cross-shop a Porsche with something else I'm interested in; and it seems like the other things I'm looking at are almost always cheaper, in some cases objectively better (though I understand, as this whole thread frequently circles back to, that subjective qualities are priceless), and easier to get. I think access is usually the primary challenge. Also, the model variations are pretty daunting, then you have the options, and it all gets very wearisome. This, coming from a guy who really likes to car shop, lol.

I guess my main question is, what's the best way to get into the Porsche thing without spending $100k on something that I feel like I may regret because I selected the 'wrong' options?
Are there some older 911 models that can be had that aren't money pits? (At least not much more than a normal enthusiast would expect...)

I'm not a track junky or anything like that, I just really enjoy a great road car and I know I'm missing out on some of that by not wading into the Porsche whirlpool.

987.2 / 997.2 can be had fairly cheap ('09+) and don't have the IMS issue. Additionally, 981 / 991 aren't too bad either. You also pay a hefty spec premium on P Cars, so if you stick to standard S or base models, prices are much lower.

 

[optronix]

I've always been a car guy and I have had the good fortune to own and drive a lot of fun stuff (at least those models attainable to the everyman) but never really had the opportunity or fortitude to jump into the Porsche thing. At times, I'll cross-shop a Porsche with something else I'm interested in; and it seems like the other things I'm looking at are almost always cheaper, in some cases objectively better (though I understand, as this whole thread frequently circles back to, that subjective qualities are priceless), and easier to get. I think access is usually the primary challenge. Also, the model variations are pretty daunting, then you have the options, and it all gets very wearisome. This, coming from a guy who really likes to car shop, lol.

I guess my main question is, what's the best way to get into the Porsche thing without spending $100k on something that I feel like I may regret because I selected the 'wrong' options?
Are there some older 911 models that can be had that aren't money pits? (At least not much more than a normal enthusiast would expect...)

I'm not a track junky or anything like that, I just really enjoy a great road car and I know I'm missing out on some of that by not wading into the Porsche whirlpool.

This is all totally fair. Porsche enthusiasts are their own "brand", IMO. It's pretty much an expectation that you're going to be the type who obsesses over how much and what color stitching you'll have in your interior. It does get wearisome... for me, I got into it 110% for several years until I just realized most of it didn't matter. But, it gives people something to obsess about and I can respect that. At that point in my life it's something I enjoyed, and very possibly could get back to that again once I have less distractions. Because yes, they are very expensive.

And now as a byproduct I have become a clearinghouse for random Porsche information. There is also that.

All that said, the obsession is validated because the Porsche experience is also it's own "brand". Some people try to deny it, but the hype is very real with these cars. They are a true introduction into that "next level" of sports car- there is no mass-produced underlying platform from a lesser car, all Porsche sports cars are built from the ground up to be performance cars, and it is usually apparent in the first 20 feet of driving one. I do very much consider Porsches "sub-exotic". The GT cars are pretty much exotic.

But to get to your question! You don't need a GT car to experience a Porsche. ABPDE5 already gave some great suggestions (him and I agree on a great many things I'm noticing), but depending on budget my suggestion for the true sweet spot in the 911 range is actually the 991.2. That's subjective, and you're gonna be knocking on the door of $100k with a 991.2 even in S trim... but it is a baby supercar, a true experience that delivers on all the subjective delights you'd expect from a 911 and also is objectively fast and can be made STUPID fast very easily. The older N/A cars are fantastic, don't get me wrong, but they're just not as fast by modern standards. The 991.1 is faster than you'd expect but still when driving one misses the sensation of speed that the 991.2 delivers on. But if you don't want to spend $100k...

Consider the mid-engine cars, or a 997. As mentioned, the mid-00s are actively avoided because there's a great fear of a potentially terminal engine issue dealing with the intermediary shaft bearing in the first-generation 987 and 997 cars. Many (including me) believe this to be hugely overblown but it does happen, and the fix can equate to virtually the value of the car itself so it's a worthy consideration to just skip that generation altogether. I have noticed prices are starting to come up so I believe people are starting to come to their senses on this but good deals are still to be had if you're not severely risk averse (and won't need to rely on this car for daily transportation). Many people come away from driving the naturally aspirated Porsches with a sense that the power didn't deliver on their expectations. The N/A engines really do need to explore the upper ends of the rev range to feel like they're going anywhere- but that is part of the appeal with these cars. The term "likes to rev" takes on a new meaning with P cars. If they're not above 5000 rpm, they're not really living. And you are rewarded in many ways for bringing them there.

The 4-cylinder 718s are also absolutely fantastic... but I actually agree that they're arguably kind of by themselves in the Porsche range. I've had one and several other "true" Porsches ( ) so I feel I have some context... but IMO there is merit to the claim that you are missing some classic Porsche "character" with the 4 cylinder engines. But... they are absolutely still Porsches, very very good ones actually, and if you're not actively turned off by the fact it has a 4 cylinder, I'd highly recommend looking into them.

As for spec, I wouldn't really worry too much about that. I'd encourage anyone looking for their first Porsche to just note what you really don't like and avoid that, the rest is ancillary. Like, if you hate red interior, avoid it. That's really it... if you start getting wrapped up in "I need 18-way seats, sport chrono, PTV, and rear-axle steering", you'll exclude a ton of very nice cars and make your life harder unnecessarily. Worry about the nitpicky options after you've experienced them, that's my suggestion. Because other than a select few, these options do not materially impact the driving experience, which is what you're buying a Porsche for (since you're here on this board asking this question, I'll assume you're not a badge whore . Get a car you like for a price you like, and enjoy.

And if you don't like it, you can feel pretty good that you won't lose too much money. Used Porsches almost never lose value. It's a crazy thing. If you're still on the fence of taking that first step, I feel like it shouldn't be too difficult to find a nice base 981 Boxster or Cayman for ~$40k. Just find one in the best condition you can and give it a shot. If you hate it, I can almost guarantee you'll sell it for what you bought it for, plus or minus a couple grand. Porsche used market is like Rolex. And I don't know anyone who'd hate a 981.

Finally, cost of ownership. Maintenance is expensive, CRAZY expensive if you go through a dealer. Although probably not that much worse than BMW, TBH... but the advantage Porsche has is their cars don't really break. Other than the aforementioned issues from the mid-00s, there is really nothing going wrong with these cars, they are rock solid. Keep them maintained, beat the shit out of them on the track, and they just continue to ask for more.

Happy to dive into any other specifics you can think of. Put these years of obsession to use.

 

[chuuey]

I've always been a car guy and I have had the good fortune to own and drive a lot of fun stuff (at least those models attainable to the everyman) but never really had the opportunity or fortitude to jump into the Porsche thing. At times, I'll cross-shop a Porsche with something else I'm interested in; and it seems like the other things I'm looking at are almost always cheaper, in some cases objectively better (though I understand, as this whole thread frequently circles back to, that subjective qualities are priceless), and easier to get. I think access is usually the primary challenge. Also, the model variations are pretty daunting, then you have the options, and it all gets very wearisome. This, coming from a guy who really likes to car shop, lol.

I guess my main question is, what's the best way to get into the Porsche thing without spending $100k on something that I feel like I may regret because I selected the 'wrong' options?
Are there some older 911 models that can be had that aren't money pits? (At least not much more than a normal enthusiast would expect...)

I'm not a track junky or anything like that, I just really enjoy a great road car and I know I'm missing out on some of that by not wading into the Porsche whirlpool.

997.2 base model was my first Porsche. Cannot recommend them highly enough as others have said. I had to add some modifications to really bring out the charm, but it was a phenomenal car. They are still achievable for a relatively reasonable price.

That being said, I am a turbo car guy at heart and still maintain that 996 turbos provide incredible value per dollar. Even in stock form, there is plenty of shove and they are extremely capable and competent in pretty much all street conditions.

Edit (for some clarity and thought): Understanding that the vast majority of cars aren’t assets; 911s are a decent place to put some money without worrying about losing a ton over time. Even if they go down in price, I don’t think you’ll see a huge drop in an already depreciated model, and the enjoyment in the end makes whatever cost associate with, worth it in my opinion.

I also think some of the Caymans, especially in recent years, drive incredibly well, even better than their 911 counterparts.

Regarding the cross shopping- something to consider that I feel is sometimes overlooked (a perfect example is M2 vs 911 debate), a purpose built sports car feels different out of the box compared to on-paper competitors which share a chassis with sedan models. In terms of a four seat, everyday usable, sports car. The options are limited. That’s why I think 911s get the praise they do.

 

[Scrodee]

And now as a byproduct I have become a clearinghouse for random Porsche information. There is also that.

This made me spit, lmao.


I very seriously shopped the 718 Cayman for a while before going with the ITS. Just needed more practicality.
I hadn't really thought of resale value when looking at all. Makes it harder, actually because the used model prices aren't too distant from the comparable new ones...
I appreciate the advice from everyone! Looks like it's time to go get lost in the Porsche configurator & classic.com...

One last question: Is it rude or snooty if I despise the cabriolet?
Is it ok if I like the Targa?

 

[optronix]

This made me spit, lmao.


I very seriously shopped the 718 Cayman for a while before going with the ITS. Just needed more practicality.
I hadn't really thought of resale value when looking at all. Makes it harder, actually because the used model prices aren't too distant from the comparable new ones...
I appreciate the advice from everyone! Looks like it's time to go get lost in the Porsche configurator classic.com...

One last question: Is it rude or snooty if I despise the cabriolet?

No I don't like the cab either. That's why I've owned 3 Boxsters. The roadster dimensions make the car look fantastic with the top down; the cab looks like an overturned bathtub. I don't like it at all...

And yeah for me I needed practicality too, and the ITS is a godsend in that category because it's a better driver's car than I ever expected it could be. So I'm completely happy with it and don't miss my Porsches... until the kids move out and I can afford to own both. That is the way to do Porsche. Either you don't need the practicality at all, or you have it covered with another vehicle. I tried to make the Porsche daily thing happen... it just didn't work out for me.

 

[ForeverCar]

@Scrodee, @ABPDE5 @optronix @chuuey have shared great insights and I am happy to add my views here.

I would say Porsches are some of the best road cars to experience if what you value happens to align with Porsches strength. Based on what you have shared here and speculating/extrapolating a bit,

• Road cars, yes.
• Something worthwhile to experience, likely yes. What you value can really influence this.
• Without spending $100k, likely yes.
• Wrong options concern, it depends (I will elaborate more below).
• Some older 911 models that can be had that aren't money pits? Likely yes.

Some points that might be helpful to you as you think through this,

• Aircooled vs watercooled? Likely watercooled as aircooled is likely an acquired taste.
• Since you mentioned 911, are you ruling front-engine and mid-engine ones out?
• I would put 928, 944, 968 in the acquired taste category as well.
• Turbocharged or naturally aspirated? While there are lots of excitement for naturally aspirated GT cars, Porsche have been doing high performance turbocharged applications for a long time (917, 956, 962, 959, etc).
• Coupe or convertible? Porsche market is a bit odd that sometimes convertibles are priced lower in the used market.

If narrowed down to 911 turbocharged,

• 996 turbo and 997 turbo prices have been going up already.
• 991.2 3.0 models might be a sweet spot.

If naturally aspirated,

• 996 and 997 are likely amazing values.

Additional dimensions to consider besides purchase price,

• total cost of ownership can be a helpful view (capital cost, opportunity cost, running cost, depreciation estimate, etc).
• having a great local independent shop is very important. It's probably a great idea to go visit some local shops and get their take.
• no one can time the market but you can reduce your risk. Many great cars goes through a U-shape curve, depreciates, hits bottom, then starts to climb. If you catch it close to the bottom, it minimizes TCO pretty well.
• most options are when you get really bored and want to split hair. Well, PCCB can be great for low brake dust. PDK vs manual is very much a personal preference.
• first Porsche is likely not going to be kept forever. So, pick something you are passionate about, can handle the cost, and go for it!

 

[RamVA]

I've always been a car guy and I have had the good fortune to own and drive a lot of fun stuff (at least those models attainable to the everyman) but never really had the opportunity or fortitude to jump into the Porsche thing. At times, I'll cross-shop a Porsche with something else I'm interested in; and it seems like the other things I'm looking at are almost always cheaper, in some cases objectively better (though I understand, as this whole thread frequently circles back to, that subjective qualities are priceless), and easier to get. I think access is usually the primary challenge. Also, the model variations are pretty daunting, then you have the options, and it all gets very wearisome. This, coming from a guy who really likes to car shop, lol.

I guess my main question is, what's the best way to get into the Porsche thing without spending $100k on something that I feel like I may regret because I selected the 'wrong' options?
Are there some older 911 models that can be had that aren't money pits? (At least not much more than a normal enthusiast would expect...)

I'm not a track junky or anything like that, I just really enjoy a great road car and I know I'm missing out on some of that by not wading into the Porsche whirlpool.

You'll get a lot of opinions, but I think a 997.1S or 987.1S is a good buy. Theoretically they have the IMS issue, but failures are rare relative the 986/996. (Note: I had a 996.1 in which the motor grenaded due to IMS. New motor, $15k.).

I'm trying to get my partner to get one of them (997.1S or 987.1S). I don't love that she track drives a soft top (986 2.7), and that car is kinda slow. Haven't talked her into it yet.

You can spend more if you want to, but you don't have to.

I will say the 997.1 is too soft, so I'd budget for springs, dampers, and sways. Same is likely true for 997.2, but I have not driven one in anger.

 

[bvanlieu]

If you think P car drivers are OCD don't ever get in the orbit of a prancy horse person. All talk, no drive cause can't put miles on it ;P

Everyone will have their own sweet spot, but I like the 9x7.2 cars as the good balance between drivers cars and luxurious GT cars. I prefer NA, the turbo cars are fantastic but just not my jam as you can't use the power on the street really. The problem with these is they are circa 2009 time frame and the build numbers are very low which doesn't bode well for the prices bottoming out.

The value play is the mid-engines, and as the years have gone by the 911 tax has grown a tad. They do drive differently for sure, but both will put a big ole smile on your face.

When we had compared a 981 to a 991.1, ended up with our Cayman. Rotation of the car on the roads just felt more spry to my wife, and she preferred it. The 911 gets you more of a rear drive push. There is an illusion that the cayman is more compact inside (its not).

In the used market, finding the right options blend can be a pain, so be prepared to have gotta haves and mehs when shopping. 911's tend to have longer options lists. Our gotta haves were sport seats, heat (vent nice) etc..and we stumbled onto one that had the sport suspension vs PASM...that was a toss up. The sport suspension is a smidge firm for bad roads but still *very* good for what it is.

Our first was a very bare bones 987.1. and don't overlook a base car vs. the S. Everyone wants moar powahs but really where can you use it? Sure we have a S because the car we found was a GTS but many times I just wish it was a NA 3.0 with 295 HP I can wring the snot out of and not be pulled over.

Similar for the Integra, when they announced it was returning, I hoped they were going to make a type S that was detuned a smidge, say the 2.0 with 275, they surprised us

 

[ForeverCar]

Adding a perspective on mileage. Of course, there are Ferrari owners that pay a lot of attention to mileage as the market prices reflect that.

For myself, I realized that time is the most precious resource and did some estimating. Even with a good health span and attempting to put as many fun miles as I can on cars, I would be lucky if any of my cars get to over 100k miles. As an example, let’s say one trade 3 cars a year and spread fun miles over 5 cars total. Even if one can put 16,000 total fun miles a year, that’s only 2,000 miles per car. A long way to say, not all relatively low miles cars are not treasured and enjoyed.

 

[optronix]

Yeah... it's easy for me to say it from my position of being broke, but the F car lifestyle isn't for me. I'd veer more towards Lambo or McLaren at that price point. Or a silly Porsche, like a GT2RS or something.

 

[bpebler]

I'm going to throw a wrench of a question towards you guys that have more experience than me and let it be noted that this is a car I'd be considering after the kids are grown and everything will already be paid off. Probably close to 10 years if I'm thinking realistically if my career doesn't drastically change.

The 9 series Porsche's you've all mentioned OR...(and don't kick my ass TOO bad here)

A C7 Stingray with some of the high end package options.

A GTR.

A modern NSX.

For those of you that have been blessed enough to compare Porsche to any of these....still choose Porsche as the superior experience?

 

[optronix]

You'll get a lot of opinions, but I think a 997.1S or 987.1S is a good buy. Theoretically they have the IMS issue, but failures are rare relative the 986/996. (Note: I had a 996.1 in which the motor grenaded due to IMS. New motor, $15k.).

I'm trying to get my partner to get one of them (997.1S or 987.1S). I don't love that she track drives a soft top (986 2.7), and that car is kinda slow. Haven't talked her into it yet.

You can spend more if you want to, but you don't have to.

I will say the 997.1 is too soft, so I'd budget for springs, dampers, and sways. Same is likely true for 997.2, but I have not driven one in anger.

If the engine goes you could always do this:

I'm going to throw a wrench of a question towards you guys that have more experience than me and let it be noted that this is a car I'd be considering after the kids are grown and everything will already be paid off. Probably close to 10 years if I'm thinking realistically if my career doesn't drastically change.

The 9 series Porsche's you've all mentioned OR...(and don't kick my ass TOO bad here)

A C7 Stingray with some of the high end package options.

A GTR.

A modern NSX.

For those of you that have been blessed enough to compare Porsche to any of these....still choose Porsche as the superior experience?

These are all good options, and depending on budget and certain subjective tastes, all could easily fit the bill for an awesome "toy" car. I haven't experienced the ones you listed directly but I'll share my thoughts as an enthusiast because I'm always happy to do that anyway .

- C7, let's just say Z06- AWESOME CAR. And probably could be had for a reasonable amount. Definitely a stingray, but even a Z06 is probably a bargain in the high-end performance car market. Tons of power, tons of capability- but there are some significant issues I've heard about for heavy track use so it would definitely be worth some due diligence if that's a use case (it should be!). But huge power, amazing sound, great chassis- although you'll have to get the starter kit:

- GTR- also an amazing car. Still expensive, and VERY expensive if something goes wrong. Arguably one of the best performing cars at any price, and can be brought up to literal insane levels of power (could say the same about the vette...). No manual available. Some argue they feel "synthetic" but IDK about that... I think it's just a distilled race car you can drive on the street. You will probably get a ton of attention in a GTR, both good and bad...

- new NSX. I love these things. But they're still very expensive and I think they've hit the bottom of the depreciation curve too, could be wrong but I wouldn't be surprised to see prices going back up because there aren't many of them... but I think all things considered I personally would almost certainly take a 911 over an NSX. The NSX is more rare and "exotic", but the 911 is almost surely a better driver's car. And probably cheaper too, at least anything below a 992 GTS would be.

My .02. Folks who've actually driven or owned these cars would provide better insight.

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