Best setup for 2 track weekends per year

[Ronnie M.]

I'm telling myself that 2 weekends of track time with this car is enough. I've only been once with this car at Houston MSR with The Driver's Edge, it was amazing and gave me a whole new appreciation for this platform. It was bone stock then, and still is now except for a new Cobb RMM. It's been a little harder than I thought to search and retrieve info for the best setup, since what I've found is that you guys have a lot more mods and more active on the track. I don't plan to do anything to the suspension at all.

It's my only car pretty much, daily driver. I know I need to upgrade brake fluid and run better pads for next time... and I'd like to have a dedicated set of track tires and wheels, in 18" that I can just swap on and off.

So, what's the optimal wheel/tire size with stock suspension? Is going 275 unnecessary? I'm still somewhat unschooled on camber. I'm told there is a way to very slightly adjust it with the factory parts. And if camber is worth upgrading parts for without sacrificing too much, any suggestions would be appreciated as well.

Brake fluid and pads are pretty straightforward. But, are upgrading to Brembo pads enough, or are those just barely better than stock? Engine oil debate seems to be a mixed bag, I'm guessing I'm fine with stock specs there.

Thanks guys.

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[elh0102]

Twice a year? Fill it with gas, use good brake fluid and drive to the track. The car's limits are pretty high. If you fully utilize the stock car you will be driving well.

 

[Ronnie M.]

Twice a year? Fill it with gas, use good brake fluid and drive to the track. The car's limits are pretty high. If you fully utilize the stock car you will be driving well.

Sweet. I DO want to upgrade the tires someday though, as I'm thinking they are pretty much the ultimate mod when it comes to the track, and can easily swap them on and off.

 

[elh0102]

Consider this regarding tires. The Civic R comes with Sport Cup 2 tires, which all the car rags say makes such a huge difference compared to the PS 4s on the ITS. The difference is about 5 seconds on the 4 mile VIR Grand course. Is that a meaningful difference? In a competitive environment yes, it's significant. For all the weekend hobbyists who are trying to improve their driving skills, no, it's not an issue. The car's brakes and suspension are well balanced to the PS 4s summer performance tire. The Cup 2, between the difference in cost and shorter life, will cost almost 50% more, just to gain about 2% in timed performance, assuming you have the skill to capture it. If you go to anything sticker, then suspension and brakes become overworked and that invites a host of issues. As they say, if you want to run with the big dogs, you gotta lift your leg high!

 

[Ronnie M.]

Consider this regarding tires. The Civic R comes with Sport Cup 2 tires, which all the car rags say makes such a huge difference compared to the PS 4s on the ITS. The difference is about 5 seconds on the 4 mile VIR Grand course. Is that a meaningful difference? In a competitive environment yes, it's significant. For all the weekend hobbyists who are trying to improve their driving skills, no, it's not an issue. The car's brakes and suspension are well balanced to the PS 4s summer performance tire. The Cup 2, between the difference in cost and shorter life, will cost almost 50% more, just to gain about 2% in timed performance, assuming you have the skill to capture it. If you go to anything sticker, then suspension and brakes become overworked and that invites a host of issues. As they say, if you want to run with the big dogs, you gotta lift your leg high!

Ahhh yes, it was the CTR guys at that event that gave me the tire itch, that figures lol.
The PS4s did seem fine most of the time, although I had to adjust the tire pressure throughout the weekend and I think I finally had it right by the last session... something like in the mid-to-high 30s psi when hot. Before that they would north of 40 and seemed a little slippery.

Someday I'll do some real bolt-ons and a tune maybe. I assume that might require some changes but I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it

 

[elh0102]

Almost every street tire that I had on track was best at +/- 38 psi. I have no track experience with front drivers, and I expect the front weight bias might need something different. As you have done, just experiment. If it's a hot day, you might want to bleed off some pressure first thing.

 

[optronix]

Another thread that can get a litany of different types of replies. Ed is mostly on point, as expected. The only thing I'll add a mild correction to is that the Civic Type R only comes with Cup2s if you specifically ask for them- technically they're listed as a factory option but the dealer has to order them and mount them just like any other tire. They come with the exact same PS4S ours do in any normal circumstance.

Other than that yes, two track days a year the car will survive just fine and even just fluid and the stock pads would be "sufficient". But I get the sense that's not what you want, which opens up the conversation greatly.

The only thing I'll leave you with at the moment is I think you're "on the right track", pun unintended. Start slow, don't do any major upgrades without extensive research, and what you'll most likely discover is that you'll be able to answer all your own questions in due time... and there's quite a high likelihood that 2 track days a year becomes... many more than that. Best piece of advice I can provide is invest in your own skill, and when you start to feel the car actively holding you back, start looking into raising the limits. They are pretty damn high with this platform, and it's very well set up as it comes from the factory.

Once you start with modifications, then it becomes a balancing act. And you can actually make it worse. Pretty easily actually. Tons of research, and usually some trial and error... that's what we're all here for as enthusiasts, sure- but unless you're just dying to start throwing parts on (hopefully not), I'd suggest to try to enjoy it stock for as long as you can, and then strategically upgrade as you evolve your driving.

edit- on tires specifically. Personally, I would say that 2 track days qualifies as enough to justify a dedicated set of 200 treadwear tires... BUT I'd still recommend asking yourself if you actively feel like the PS4S kept you from reaching the full potential of the car. My guess is probably not- the only time I've had the car out on track I felt the tires were acceptable for the amount I was pushing the car. I'm not a super-seasoned track rat by any stretch, but I have enough experience under my belt to keep a pretty solid pace and the stock Michelins kept up with what I wanted out of them, which I would have to imagine is probably higher than a true novice. I was actively holding back my first time out, it should be noted.

That said, if I were to go back out there (and I plan to this year), it will be on 200 treadwear tires. I primarily do autocross, and the thought of being forced to use only PS4S on this car for autocross makes me physically sick to my stomach, so I know I'd be frustrated if I were in a track setting too. But it took me a while to get to this point so you might not need to jump out and get them right away...

But when you do I'd also suggest start considering 18s right now. Far more tire choices, and although I don't have direct experience (yet), the more forgiving sidewall in a 18" tire makes for a better experience anyway. My only true gripe with 18s is they don't look great on this car in particular. But some wheel designs minimize that- so I bought a set of Volk CE28Ns, I can't wait to get them on in the spring. (But I'm also keeping the 19" Apex I bought because they look great and I actually prefer the PS4S on the street).

Anyway. Enough typing. Hopefully someone else with more track experience chimes in soon. @Victorofhavoc ?

 

[Ronnie M.]

Other than that yes, two track days a year the car will survive just fine and even just fluid and the stock pads would be "sufficient". But I get the sense that's not what you want, which opens up the conversation greatly.

It is and it isn't, lol. Modding is definitely fun, but like you said, I realize it is a balancing act and I want to upset that balance as little as possible. I may go for the Brembo pads next, I hear they produce less brake dust but I'll do more research.

On a bit of a side note, I am loving this Cobb RMM. I'm satisfied with that for now, I can only imagine it'll add to the experience on the track.

and there's quite a high likelihood that 2 track days a year becomes... many more than that. Best piece of advice I can provide is invest in your own skill, and when you start to feel the car actively holding you back, start looking into raising the limits. They are pretty damn high with this platform, and it's very well set up as it comes from the factory.

I have been already been told the same thing haha.
I think reading this particular forum and posts from guys that have tracked a lot and upgraded a lot, may have misled my thinking into how much I need to do. For instance, a lot of guys complain about the PS4s and how they get "greasy", but like both of you guys in this thread have said, they probably have other mods that are pushing those tires beyond its limits.

And as for the PS4S, per my first experience and by what you guys have told me, I will continue to use them. I "graduated" beyond novice by the end of the weekend according to my instructor and my lap times were getting faster (I'd just leave open the Track Addict app and check it later). I still don't think I maxed out the tires yet, if anything I was just starting to figure out what tire pressure I needed and my very last session actually felt the best.

As much as I wanted to play around with a new set and an excuse for some cool aftermarket wheels, I'll put the idea of an extra set of tires on the backburner. Thanks for the advice gentlemen.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

I've done about 400 laps at various tracks in this car now. For reference, I'm typically used to full on race cars, but I have a good amount of experience with street cars on track.

You're doing the right thing by just getting out and driving. Ensure you're totally turning off traction control, or you'll eat rear pads really quickly. Focus on your line and your brake points. Then start working on how you release the brake. You want a smooth release, no popping off.

Do all the fluids... Brake fluid and oil to start. Trans fluid becomes a every-two-years thing or every 6 hot weekends.

Brake pads will eventually be your next investment. I'd recommend picking a pad to swap to for weekends (I love carbotech) or go for a "dual duty" pad like a ferodo ds2500 that can do an okay job. Going to a 200tw tire or more, you'll 100% need dedicated track pads because this car is very heavy and has all the weight up front to cook those rotors (not to mention the heat coming from tire/power).

The ps4s will reach 98% the limit of a high end 200tw, and driven well (to its limit and not above it) the dt1 compound will remain mostly consistent with a minimal drop off over a 20 min session. If you want more, you can have it with a proper 200tw, but keep them milder unless you plan to push 3deg camber (unwise for only 2 weekends).

You can pull the strut alignment pin at the shock hat in the engine bay and then loosen the bolts to lean the top hat in more and gain free neg camber. I was able to reach -2.2 up front with stock setup and no pins. That's roughly what most higher end street/sport cars tend to run for a 300tw compound. The car seems to like it, but it really likes some toe out up front.

Happy driving! Glad to see more its out there! I teach a classroom for HPDE and I've only had ctr folks out so far and haven't seen a single its.

 

[elh0102]

It is and it isn't, lol. Modding is definitely fun, but like you said, I realize it is a balancing act and I want to upset that balance as little as possible.

First, a disclosure. My first experience at sports car mods was with a 1974 Datsun 260Z that I bought new for $5,500. So yes, I'm old, 76 at last count. After installing a 3X 2 barrel side draft Solex intake, headers, cam and valve job, the power was substantial, and totally screwed up the overall dynamics of the car. After reworking suspension and brakes, I had an impressive car, at a cost of probably 3 times my original budget. At that time, I was a young man who enjoyed mechanical stuff, so it was worth the time and money spent. When I sold the car a few years later, I recovered maybe 20% of the money spent. But I was a young guy and this was my hobby, so I have no regrets, and will offer only the following: If you are considering substantial modifications, seek out a well regarded shop or race team with deep experience, and discuss your goals. There are relatively smart and stupid ways to spend money on this stuff, and I've done my share of both. Enjoy the journey.

 

[Victorofhavoc]

First, a disclosure. My first experience at sports car mods was with a 1974 Datsun 260Z that I bought new for $5,500. So yes, I'm old, 76 at last count. After installing a 3X 2 barrel side draft Solex intake, headers, cam and valve job, the power was substantial, and totally screwed up the overall dynamics of the car. After reworking suspension and brakes, I had an impressive car, at a cost of probably 3 times my original budget. At that time, I was a young man who enjoyed mechanical stuff, so it was worth the time and money spent. When I sold the car a few years later, I recovered maybe 20% of the money spent. But I was a young guy and this was my hobby, so I have no regrets, and will offer only the following: If you are considering substantial modifications, seek out a well regarded shop or race team with deep experience, and discuss your goals. There are relatively smart and stupid ways to spend money on this stuff, and I've done my share of both. Enjoy the journey.

This 1000x over.

The worst thing you can do to your car for performance is modify without a specific goal. Outside of consumables, everything else needs deep thought and it always starts with tire choice. Tire decides alignment, decides suspension, decides chassis stiffness, decides power, and so on.

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