no benefit to the LSD in the 6MT?

[ashmostro]

Do we know if both cars had fresh tires set to the same pressure with identical ambient temps and prepped surfaces?

See where I'm going with this?

Sponsored

 

[STL]

Do we know if both cars had fresh tires set to the same pressure with identical ambient temps and prepped surfaces?

See where I'm going with this?

I get what you are saying, but when I see two different established press reviews state the same thing it seems like too much of a coincidence to think the CVT just happened to be better setup in both cases.

 

[ashmostro]

Two data points is not statistically meaningful though

 

[NoelPR]

Skidpad has nothing to do with LSD.

 

[babytypeR]

It not a better set up, on paper the CVT is inferior.

I am not sure if this is common knowledge, but these cars come with Honda's Agile handling assist (AHA). It is essentially a brake torque vectoring feature that mitigates the effects of the open differential and assists with cornering stability. The 6MT also has it, including the Si, CTR, and ITS. This is also the reason why the CTR's and ITS cook their brake fluids on track.

I had a 2017 Civic Sport CVT and it did not have the Agile handling assist. It would spin the tire on the inside while cornering. I now have an Integra A Spec CVT and it handles significantly better than my old Civic.

Anyways, the agile handling assist benefits the CVT more than the 6MT as it slightly helps the LSD, whereas the open diff probably reacts better to the AHA. AHA might actually cause more drag for the 6MT LSD. Who knows. The CVT might also have a slightly better COG too, just a theory.
There's also many other factors as we do not know if Motor trend tested both cars in the same exact conditions.

 

[elh0102]

It not a better set up, on paper the CVT is inferior.

I am not sure if this is common knowledge, but these cars come with Honda's Agile handling assist (AHA). It is essentially a brake torque vectoring feature that mitigates the effects of the open differential and assists with cornering stability. The 6MT also has it, including the Si, CTR, and ITS. This is also the reason why the CTR's and ITS cook their brake fluids on track.

I had a 2017 Civic Sport CVT and it did not have the Agile handling assist. It would spin the tire on the inside while cornering. I now have an Integra A Spec CVT and it handles significantly better than my old Civic.

Anyways, the agile handling assist benefits the CVT more than the 6MT as it slightly helps the LSD, whereas the open diff probably reacts better to the AHA. AHA might actually cause more drag for the 6MT LSD. Who knows. The CVT might also have a slightly better COG too, just a theory.
There's also many other factors as we do not know if Motor trend tested both cars in the same exact conditions.

So, is this AHA system turned off in the ITS when VSA is turned off through the 3-step process?

 

[Victorofhavoc]

So, is this AHA system turned off in the ITS when VSA is turned off through the 3-step process?

If by 3 step you mean the pedal dance, then yes. Can confirm rear brake temps for a 20 min track session are at basically half after pedal dance.

 

[Two Step Performance]

In the real world this is a pretty silly take. Looking back at the 10th gen Civic platform the step up to the Si from the 6MT Sport turbo model was as much about the LSD as any of the other performance improvements. The same thing carries over here, especially if you are thinking about tuning the car - the LSD is a big value add.

 

[STL]

In the real world this is a pretty silly take. Looking back at the 10th gen Civic platform the step up to the Si from the 6MT Sport turbo model was as much about the LSD as any of the other performance improvements. The same thing carries over here, especially if you are thinking about tuning the car - the LSD is a big value add.

It appears the neutering started with the 11th Gen. MT comments on the 2022 Si:
"Likely the biggest issue is the stability control, which is never fully off and won't give you full power until the steering wheel is completely straight, despite the standard limited-slip front differential."
That was mentioned just after the article talked about how handling/cornering of the Si went backwards (on the stopwatch) with the 11th Gen. That said, I already admitted my initial take was a bit off-base because it's really only looking at "max performance" and not everyday performance.

 

[STL]

I sold my 07 TSX 6MT (great cars!) about 1.5 years before I got my Integra A Spec 6MT. I loved my TSX, it was an amazing car. I also love the Integra, and it feels more similar to the TSX than any other car I have tried. There are things I prefer about each.

While the steering heft of the TSX was better, I certainly feel more grip from the LSD in fast turns from the Integra. Try it, I think you will enjoy.

Thanks for the reply! How is the rev hang in the your Integra versus your TSX? That is one of my bigger gripes about the TSX; to me it takes most the fun out of the car when trying to do spirited driving.

 

[elh0102]

Thanks for the reply! How is the rev hang in the your Integra versus your TSX? That is one of my bigger gripes about the TSX; to me it takes most the fun out of the car when trying to do spirited driving.

It's interesting how this rev overhang issue occurs in some cars but not all. My ITS has not demonstrated this behavior. I wonder if a reflash of the EEC software by the dealer could correct it?

 

[stanleywinthrop]

It's interesting how this rev overhang issue occurs in some cars but not all. My ITS has not demonstrated this behavior. I wonder if a reflash of the EEC software by the dealer could correct it?

I've learned that there are a bunch of drivers who were taught to match revs on upshifts. This is the only scenario in which rev hang becomes a problem. Personally, I learned to shift without staring at the tach and rev hang has never been a problem for me. I suspect you may be the same.

 

[TheRas900]

Thanks for the reply! How is the rev hang in the your Integra versus your TSX? That is one of my bigger gripes about the TSX; to me it takes most the fun out of the car when trying to do spirited driving.

They are pretty similar in all regards. I do say the Integra allows earlier shifting, which makes the rev hang a little less objectionable. It never really bothers me anyhow. If you shift at the same rpm, the amount hang also seems the same.

 

[STL]

I've learned that there are a bunch of drivers who were taught to match revs on upshifts. This is the only scenario in which rev hang becomes a problem. Personally, I learned to shift without staring at the tach and rev hang has never been a problem for me. I suspect you may be the same.

It isn't a problem in typical everyday driving, but as soon as I try to drive my TSX aggressively (i.e. kicking up the revs up towards redline) that's when rev hang occurs. From that I can tell, it occurs because the car's electroniccs are trying to keep emissions down which is what I always kinda suspected -- but I've now found numerous articles explaining rev hang in modern cars. I also don't have the issue at all with my '00 S2000, but it also has a mechanical cable from the gas pedal to the throttle body. And for the record I don't look at my tach while driving! I also never had the issue with my '95 Civic or my wife's old '93 Prelude (both 5MTs).

 

[STL]

They are pretty similar in all regards. I do say the Integra allows earlier shifting, which makes the rev hang a little less objectionable. It never really bothers me anyhow. If you shift at the same rpm, the amount hang also seems the same.

Thanks! I am reading that it should be less of an issue in cars with direct injection. I don't think my old TSX has that, but I suspect the new Teg does. I test drove the 6MT Integra back in 2023 when it came out, but the MTs seem harder to find lately. I will track down a dealer with one later this fall and get another drive in -- and this time I'll take my TSX there so I can do a good A-B comparison.

Sponsored