ForeverCar’s ITS Journal

[crepr12]

Hyperbole....jmho...

 

[optronix]

@optronix Thank you. Yes, I would be happy to share my perspective on McLaren. The one I drove around tail of dragon is a 720S coupe. Visually, some McLaren models are pretty tough to distinguish. McLaren wise, this happens to be the 7th one I have had (only have this 720S currently) so hope to share helpful perspectives.

Having an aspirational car is good as long as one can still enjoy the current moments and journey.

I'd be curious of your take on the Artura. Journalists seem to really love it... I'm hoping the fit and finish issues get ironed out a bit before I start getting serious about getting one.

And right now I have an aspirational car because I'm taking a break from "seriously expensive" or "toy" sports cars with two kids in college. The Artura and 992.2 911 are probably at the top of my list... but I may end up going used with a 718 Spyder or maybe even a 997. More thought will be applied as I get closer to "freedom"... will cross that bridge in about 3.5 years hopefully.

Really interested in your upcoming comparison of the ITS and the 718's.

What do you want to know? I've had every iteration of Boxster GTS; 981, 718 2.5T and 718 4.0.

I think the most concise way to put my takeaway is that the only thing I really miss is the engine note of the 6 cylinder cars and being able to put the top down. Yes, the 718s are faster in virtually every measurable metric, but the overall driving dynamics are equally as fun, as hard as that may be to believe.

More specifically, the 718s (all mid-engine Porsches really... but especially the latter GTS cars or those equipped with sports suspension and PTV/LSD) have this cool sense of the car literally rotating around you. Can't really articulate it better than that, really has to be experienced. That sensation is obviously not duplicated in the ITS, but the steering, chassis feel, and manual transmission feel (especially the gearing!) make up for it enough to where I sincerely don't pine over wishing I was in a Porsche when I find myself on a good back road. The ITS is THAT good to drive IMHO.

Quick question since you've driven a McLaren, something most of us won't attain.

Matt Farah from The Smoking Tire mentioned that "South of a McLaren, he didn't really thing could probably go faster around back country/canyon roads.

I'm sure there are a few P cars, but I'm wondering if this is journalistic hyperbole or if the gap minimal considering one is 3-4 times more expensive.

It's not, but it's nuanced. Obviously I haven't driven a McLaren, but I had a 991.2 Carrera S for over a year and there is a sense of true theater when you drive a "legit" sports car that is kinda missing from the ITS... but when you're just focusing on the road in front of you none of that really matters. As for performance... no, unless you're pushing a supercar well beyond what should be happening on public roads, the ITS would keep up just fine.

Would I try to take it to hang with a couple friends of mine who take their Huracan Performante and GT3RS through West Virginia mountain roads? No I don't think so because I know they probably average triple digit speeds on those runs. But under "normal" street driving, yes.

Here's a pretty good video that goes into further depth, with a very relatable scenario.

 

[ForeverCar]

Really interested in your upcoming comparison of the ITS and the 718's.

From a pure chassis and handling perspective, the 718s are pretty tough to beat. Combined with a relatively small footprint and lightweight (my 718 T weighed in at around 3020 lbs with a full tank of fuel), it's responsive and agile. Sure, rear suspension geometry is not as advanced as the 911 GT3s and the front suspension is not double wishbone like the 992.1 GT3, the 718s pretty much does whatever you want it to do while giving you great confidence and feedback. Yes, the steering is electric power assist but it's very close to the best hydraulic setup. The manual shifter uses cables and feel pretty great but I think the ITS one is a tad better (feels a bit more connected and precise). Engine wise, the flat 4 2.0L turbo and the 2.5L turbo have a higher maximum rev but the sound is just okay. Character wise, the ITS engine is more exciting (while the torque does fall off in the higher rpm, the engine still feel eager and exciting to rev to redline). With pretty tall gearing, one does not get to shift as much and could reduce engagement if that is important to you. Looks wise, the 718s is pure sports car and there is something cool about that. With a wide range of 718s, there are good factory upgrade options too. Silly things like the door pull straps on the T do add to the overall experience. Although the 23.7 gallons fuel tank option available on the 911 is not available in the 718s, the 16.X gallons capacity is helpful to reduce the number of fuel stops. In my heart, I am very much an engine person, so the ITS wins out for me. Yes, the 4.0L in the GT4 and GTS are really great, that engine lives in a bit of an in between land for me as the 4.0L in the GT3 is significantly more special. The GT4RS has the special 4.0L engine but does not come in a manual. I think the intake sound of the GT4RS will be forever special so I would be happy to get one if the opportunity arises.

 

[ForeverCar]

Quick question since you've driven a McLaren, something most of us won't attain.

Matt Farah from The Smoking Tire mentioned that "South of a McLaren, he didn't really thing could probably go faster around back country/canyon roads.

I'm sure there are a few P cars, but I'm wondering if this is journalistic hyperbole or if the gap minimal considering one is 3-4 times more expensive.

In short, I do think it is a bit of journalistic hyperbole.

The long version is more complicated. I would probably phrase it as, in relatively responsible speed, the ITS provides some of the best driving engagement and enjoyment at any price. Yes, there are cars that can go faster but that does not always mean higher engagement or enjoyment (well, it also depends on what you find engaging and enjoyable). Also with journalistic hyperbole, this reminds me of a video where Chris Harris compares a Peugeot to the 991.1 R. That one is a bit silly as I had a 991.1 R as well. The 991.1 R is likely one of the top 5 cars for me and I planned on keeping it forever (but plans changed, in time I might get to share the reasons behind that decision).

 

[ForeverCar]

I'd be curious of your take on the Artura. Journalists seem to really love it... I'm hoping the fit and finish issues get ironed out a bit before I start getting serious about getting one.

And right now I have an aspirational car because I'm taking a break from "seriously expensive" or "toy" sports cars with two kids in college. The Artura and 992.2 911 are probably at the top of my list... but I may end up going used with a 718 Spyder or maybe even a 997. More thought will be applied as I get closer to "freedom"... will cross that bridge in about 3.5 years hopefully.

Here's a pretty good video that goes into further depth, with a very relatable scenario.

I was going to buy an Artura to drive to Car Week in 2022 but the Artura release got delayed. I am a fan of the car as very few manufacturers still care about overall weight like McLaren. Being able to drive in 100% electric mode is appealing for being quiet. The carbon tub is a strong advantage of McLaren in my eyes. However, long-term ownership might have higher TCO or more hassle than one might anticipates. I definitely hope McLaren figures it out but it's tough. McLaren doesn't have the brand recognition like Ferrari and there are very few independent shops. In addition, McLaren makes it tough to source parts. With the overall reliability reputation, resell values are tough. To own one beyond warranty pretty much means $10k/yr for "nothing" (extended warranty cost and mandatory service work). Not sure if the Artura uses the cross-linked hydraulic suspension and whether the accumulators have been revised for the better. Basically, they will go bad and it is just a matter of time.

To be clear, I am a big fan of McLaren based on the performance. Most hybird powertrains do not interests me (other than wanting an Artura to play with last year). Before this generation of hybrids, I feel pretty confident saying that McLaren 720S and 765LT performance are significantly above Ferrari (Yes, I have had a number of Ferraris too. But I am not a "Ferrari is the best" type of fan and I know I will never be on Ferrari's special list so I call it as I see it). Turbocharged engines add some but also take away some enjoyment for me. If I call that a wash, the 675LT, 720S, and 765LT are some of the best supercars to drive (sadly, no manual for manual enthusiasts).

Coincidentally, I have had a 765LT coupe and a spider as well. The 765LT is a very special car. I think it will be known as one of the greatest of all time in the years to come (even if it requires significant money and hassle to keep it running). The 765LT belongs in my top 5 list as well and I also wanted to keep it forever (plans changed though but in a good way).

 

[optronix]

I was going to buy an Artura to drive to Car Week in 2022 but the Artura release got delayed. I am a fan of the car as very few manufacturers still care about overall weight like McLaren. Being able to drive in 100% electric mode is appealing for being quiet. The carbon tub is a strong advantage of McLaren in my eyes. However, long-term ownership might have higher TCO or more hassle than one might anticipates. I definitely hope McLaren figures it out but it's tough. McLaren doesn't have the brand recognition like Ferrari and there are very few independent shops. In addition, McLaren makes it tough to source parts. With the overall reliability reputation, resell values are tough. To own one beyond warranty pretty much means $10k/yr for "nothing" (extended warranty cost and mandatory service work). Not sure if the Artura uses the cross-linked hydraulic suspension and whether the accumulators have been revised for the better. Basically, they will go bad and it is just a matter of time.

To be clear, I am a big fan of McLaren based on the performance. Most hybird powertrains do not interests me (other than wanting an Artura to play with last year). Before this generation of hybrids, I feel pretty confident saying that McLaren 720S and 765LT performance are significantly above Ferrari (Yes, I have had a number of Ferraris too. But I am not a "Ferrari is the best" type of fan and I know I will never be on Ferrari's special list so I call it as I see it). Turbocharged engines add some but also take away some enjoyment for me. If I call that a wash, the 675LT, 720S, and 765LT are some of the best supercars to drive (sadly, no manual for manual enthusiasts).

Coincidentally, I have had a 765LT coupe and a spider as well. The 765LT is a very special car. I think it will be known as one of the greatest of all time in the years to come (even if it requires significant money and hassle to keep it running). The 765LT belongs in my top 5 list as well and I also wanted to keep it forever (plans changed though but in a good way).

This is why I need to get out to cars and coffees more often! What wonderfully helpful feedback.

I guess living with Porsches for so long it's easy to take their supreme reliability and INSANE resale value for granted. I'm hoping that McLaren can figure it out too (and Lotus with the Emira)- that the piddly things that go wrong in these cars that lead to tanking resale values won't allow them to scale the way they want to... but perhaps taking a gamble on an all-new hybrid platform from a less-than-stellar brand for reliability isn't a wise financial decision!

I do still think I'm going to feel a very strong gravitational pull towards the 992.2 whenever Porsche gets around to announcing that- my guess is that it will have the 4.0 from the 718s or the next evolution of a naturally aspirated flat 6 paired to some sort of electric motor(s). I fully agree that the GT 4.0 engine and 4.0 in the "lesser" 718s are night and day, but that 4.0 is still a wonderful engine IMO... and by the time I'm in a position to buy it will have been around for a few years so we'll see where things land around then.

But back to the topic- I also fully agree that this Integra Type S will have a place in my garage no matter what I end up with. It rightfully deserves a spot in these conversations, which still blows my mind every time I drive it.

 

[chopsuey34]

What do you want to know? I've had every iteration of Boxster GTS; 981, 718 2.5T and 718 4.0.

I think the most concise way to put my takeaway is that the only thing I really miss is the engine note of the 6 cylinder cars and being able to put the top down. Yes, the 718s are faster in virtually every measurable metric, but the overall driving dynamics are equally as fun, as hard as that may be to believe.

More specifically, the 718s (all mid-engine Porsches really... but especially the latter GTS cars or those equipped with sports suspension and PTV/LSD) have this cool sense of the car literally rotating around you. Can't really articulate it better than that, really has to be experienced. That sensation is obviously not duplicated in the ITS, but the steering, chassis feel, and manual transmission feel (especially the gearing!) make up for it enough to where I sincerely don't pine over wishing I was in a Porsche when I find myself on a good back road. The ITS is THAT good to drive IMHO.

Awesome, thanks for the response. Cayman/Boxster T (or maybe 911 T) are one of my future acquisition cars, but good to know that the ITS is so comparable. Makes me feel better that there is a great value option down lower on the price scale.

 

[chopsuey34]

From a pure chassis and handling perspective, the 718s are pretty tough to beat. Combined with a relatively small footprint and lightweight (my 718 T weighed in at around 3020 lbs with a full tank of fuel), it's responsive and agile. Sure, rear suspension geometry is not as advanced as the 911 GT3s and the front suspension is not double wishbone like the 992.1 GT3, the 718s pretty much does whatever you want it to do while giving you great confidence and feedback. Yes, the steering is electric power assist but it's very close to the best hydraulic setup. The manual shifter uses cables and feel pretty great but I think the ITS one is a tad better (feels a bit more connected and precise). Engine wise, the flat 4 2.0L turbo and the 2.5L turbo have a higher maximum rev but the sound is just okay. Character wise, the ITS engine is more exciting (while the torque does fall off in the higher rpm, the engine still feel eager and exciting to rev to redline). With pretty tall gearing, one does not get to shift as much and could reduce engagement if that is important to you. Looks wise, the 718s is pure sports car and there is something cool about that. With a wide range of 718s, there are good factory upgrade options too. Silly things like the door pull straps on the T do add to the overall experience. Although the 23.7 gallons fuel tank option available on the 911 is not available in the 718s, the 16.X gallons capacity is helpful to reduce the number of fuel stops. In my heart, I am very much an engine person, so the ITS wins out for me. Yes, the 4.0L in the GT4 and GTS are really great, that engine lives in a bit of an in between land for me as the 4.0L in the GT3 is significantly more special. The GT4RS has the special 4.0L engine but does not come in a manual. I think the intake sound of the GT4RS will be forever special so I would be happy to get one if the opportunity arises.

Thanks for the write up. Wannabe future Porsche owner here, and I appreciate your opinions. I agree, the tall gearing would be a buzz kill on the excellent 718 platform.

 

[ForeverCar]

This is why I need to get out to cars and coffees more often! What wonderfully helpful feedback.

I guess living with Porsches for so long it's easy to take their supreme reliability and INSANE resale value for granted. I'm hoping that McLaren can figure it out too (and Lotus with the Emira)- that the piddly things that go wrong in these cars that lead to tanking resale values won't allow them to scale the way they want to... but perhaps taking a gamble on an all-new hybrid platform from a less-than-stellar brand for reliability isn't a wise financial decision!

I do still think I'm going to feel a very strong gravitational pull towards the 992.2 whenever Porsche gets around to announcing that- my guess is that it will have the 4.0 from the 718s or the next evolution of a naturally aspirated flat 6 paired to some sort of electric motor(s). I fully agree that the GT 4.0 engine and 4.0 in the "lesser" 718s are night and day, but that 4.0 is still a wonderful engine IMO... and by the time I'm in a position to buy it will have been around for a few years so we'll see where things land around then.

But back to the topic- I also fully agree that this Integra Type S will have a place in my garage no matter what I end up with. It rightfully deserves a spot in these conversations, which still blows my mind every time I drive it.

I have been working from home and I did not leave the house yesterday. After one day of not getting to drive the ITS, I am already itching to drive it and I think that is a great sign. ITS is truly an amazing car to drive.

Yes, the 4.0L from Porsche is a really great engine. The torque curve is flat (might even have an advantage over the one from the GT department for smoothness and flexibility). The engine revs happily and looks to have good power potential even in the naturally aspirate form. I would imagine there are exhaust options to make it sound great. Given recent patterns of Porsche engine evolution that I am familiar with, it would appear that the 992.2 will introduce some sort of new powertrain. 997.1 to 997.2 no more Mezger (except the GT cars) and direct injection. 991.1 to 991.2 went all in on turbos (except the GT cars). If this pattern continues, there is hope that the 992.2 GT cars (besides GT2 variants) will remain pure internal combustion engines that are naturally aspirated!

 

[ForeverCar]

@optronix Sharing my personal experience on quality and reliability in case it's helpful.

McLaren (about 7,000 miles, 3 years, 7 cars - 3 new and 4 under 3k miles pre-owned). Suspension accumulators on a 675LT, cam sensor on a 675LT, exterior temperature sensor and airbag sensor on a 765LT, cracked top glass on a 720S, and a bad key fob. For the pre-owned ones, all CPO with extended warranty (~$5k/yr per car excluding likely $5k/yr per car on mandatory services). While one does it anyway, it is less cool when the warranty requires you to do pre and post track event inspection at the dealership within 30 days on each side of the event.

Ferrari (about 20,000 miles, 5 years, 4 cars - 3 new and 1 7k miles pre-owned). Rock solid and only a license plate light of the pre-owned 458 needed replacement.

Porsche (lost track of miles - 50k+, 12 years, 10 cars - 8 new and 2 pre-owned). Rock solid as well with some known "issues". Since the 991 and 718, the only thing that needed attention was a small coolant hose small leak on my 991.2 GT3 touring. The Mezger engines should get the coolant hose address (welded would be my prefer method but finding a great shop to weld might be tougher). On the Mezger turbo, I think water pump and coil packs are somewhat maintenance items.

FK8 CTR 8k miles from new. 100% rock solid. I expect the ITS to be similar as well.

 

[ForeverCar]

Thanks for the write up. Wannabe future Porsche owner here, and I appreciate your opinions. I agree, the tall gearing would be a buzz kill on the excellent 718 platform.

I am slightly biased as I have learned that Porsche resonates with me the best. The specs are not over stated, the quality is consistently high, and very few cars can truly be track ready from the factory. For the sports cars, pretty much all of them are great. If you have specific questions, I am happy to see if I can help answer.

While the ITS has a slightly different character, I would say it has many similar strengths like Porsches. The ITS is almost like if Porsche built a FWD sports sedan/hatch.

 

[optronix]

I am slightly biased as I have learned that Porsche resonates with me the best. The specs are not over stated, the quality is consistently high, and very few cars can truly be track ready from the factory. For the sports cars, pretty much all of them are great. If you have specific questions, I am happy to see if I can help answer.

While the ITS has a slightly different character, I would say it has many similar strengths like Porsches. The ITS is almost like if Porsche built a FWD sports sedan/hatch.

I'd like to think that if I had the opportunity to own all the same great cars as you, I'd arrive at a similar conclusion. For a "usable" sports car, it really doesn't get any better than Porsche.

(But do you still have the 458? I keep going back to that car and the Lexus LFA as cars I would not miss the opportunity to drive under any circumstances)

And I've said the exact same thing about the ITS since I first drove one... it's got all the same sensations one would expect from a Porsche, and I do not believe that is hyperbole, having owned 4 Porsche sports cars myself. It also happens to be track-ready from the factory... to a certain degree. It was more robust than an F82 M4 I had that warped the OEM steel rotors, and I couldn't reach its limits with my experience and had an absolute blast on the one track event I've taken it to. It may not hold up to rigorous, repeated abuse by an experienced fast driver, but it is super impressive nonetheless from a value perspective relative to MUCH more expensive cars.

AND I can fit my dog in it!!! I do truly love this car.

 

[ForeverCar]

I'd like to think that if I had the opportunity to own all the same great cars as you, I'd arrive at a similar conclusion. For a "usable" sports car, it really doesn't get any better than Porsche.

(But do you still have the 458? I keep going back to that car and the Lexus LFA as cars I would not miss the opportunity to drive under any circumstances)

And I've said the exact same thing about the ITS since I first drove one... it's got all the same sensations one would expect from a Porsche, and I do not believe that is hyperbole, having owned 4 Porsche sports cars myself. It also happens to be track-ready from the factory... to a certain degree. It was more robust than an F82 M4 I had that warped the OEM steel rotors, and I couldn't reach its limits with my experience and had an absolute blast on the one track event I've taken it to. It may not hold up to rigorous, repeated abuse by an experienced fast driver, but it is super impressive nonetheless from a value perspective relative to MUCH more expensive cars.

AND I can fit my dog in it!!! I do truly love this car.

Totally, the ITS having space for my dog is a great! While I do have my dog in the 718, there is only enough space for wife or dog which is not ideal.

For serious track use, I would imagine seats, harness, fire extinguisher, tires, brake fluids & pads, and maybe oil cooler is all the ITS would need. Porsche bucket seats and fire extinguisher from the factory are convenient. Besides potentially an oil cooler, even the best street cars would need similar prep as the ITS for lots of track use. Of course, my view is get a dedicated race car if one truly wants to do lots of track miles.

I do not have the 458 anymore. It is an amazing car! Last naturally asipirated Ferrari rear mid engine V8, 9000 rpm redline, sublime chassis, and all the flair plus drama that Ferrari does the best. If you get the chance to experience one, go for it! If I have the resources, a 458 Speciale will definitely have a permanent spot. Sadly, I missed the boat on that. Gotta make choices in life.

 

[ForeverCar]

Compared to the Focus RS, I think the ITS is better (for me, of course) in the following way,

• An engine that I do not worry about at all.
• An amazing shifter.
• Nicer interior.
• Exhaust pops just right (the Focus RS has more and can be a bit too much).
• Significantly smoother ride in comfort suspension mode.

On the Focus RS side,

• AWD.
• Smaller size.
• Even more under the radar.

 

[ForeverCar]

Compared to the FK8 Civic Type R that I had, the ITS have quite a few areas that I am happier with. In no particular order,

• I like the ITS looks quite a bit more.
• The more subtle interior color scheme is more aligned with my preference.
• The softer and smoother suspension is welcomed.
• The 19" stock wheels is also a better choice IMO.
• The exhaust pops is a great addition and not overdone.

I do miss the shift light and additional gauge options though.